Well, people with obvious mental health problems such as being schizophrenic etc. :shrug: Doctors know what they're doing.

And are you medically trained to determine who needs help or not?? Have you done research into this?? Have you researched other peoples studies on this??

no, I am not. nor did I ever say that I was. I did say that I value self determination more than human life, but by that I meant I would rather die any number of times over than to live by giving up my free will. that was very hyperbolic and I apologize for that.

and regarding the discussion. I agree, I never intended it to be a discussion solely on how I feel about the modern treatment for the mentally ill. but it seems to have quickly gotten that way, I will step back and let other people discuss if they wish. I now see that I cannot participate because others will only feel the need to change my mind about it, or accuse me in being in support of genocide and drug trafficking.

@ali I specifically said that I don't think I should be deciding for people either.

I'm perfectly fine getting meds to stay in acceptable human condition. Or even alive when on a downwards polar spiral.


Also: There is no self-determination. We're just the product of genes, hormones, brain structure and conditioning, among a few others. There is no way in that we would react otherwise, being who we are. Even when you say "Heck with conditioning, I'll do B instead of A", this is still the result of said influences. And we are only beginning to understand this these years. There's so much potential when we map our brain and get to know which part does exactly what...

These types of discussions can get strange. People have their ideals and those ideals tend to go against what's best for the person. Moral issues are strained and emotions flare. Then legality becomes an issue. With the moral and legal issues facing many people (and their families) with mental disorders ranging from trivial to severe, it's hard to say where one should take a stand. Taking a blanket position is almost always a bad idea. People with serious mental health issues will almost always need medication while people with moderate issues might not need anything more than a shoulder or an ear of a close friend.

There's certainly more to be discussed and I'm sure there's a deep and interesting story about your philosophy. I fear it'll drag us off topic, though. Regardless, it's admirable to stick with your ideals no matter what other people tell you. Your ideals have a stronger meaning than I can express and truly show the strength of the human spirit. But once again, I point to my first paragraph. Blanket statements are bad, even this one. There are boundaries when one should submit or has no choice but to submit.

Then who do you think should decide and how?? There has to be a line somewhere, and I personally think that a doctor, who has spent 5+ years at medical school, and how ever long in his job as a specialist mental illness doctor, supported by any relevant research conducted, again, by people with medical degrees and years of experience, is in a very good position to decide who is fit to "lead a healthy lifestyle". You can't just throw ideas out there that you don't agree with the current way of diagnosing and treating mental illnesses, when you don't seem to have researched the topic, nor are you proposing an alternative.

But would you rather die than restrict someone else's free will? If the mentally ill person was trying to kill you, wouldn't you be restricting his free will by trying to stop him?

What about your free will being taken away because someone else is trying to kill you?


There may well be situations where the free will of the patient should be considered important, but you can't have it all one way. There have to be guidelines on when it would be better to let them have thier free will, or when it would be better to restrict it to lessen the harm to other people.

I have schizophrenic tendencies (essentially a precursor to schizophrenia). While it's not as bad as full blown schizophrenia, it can still be pretty damn right awful, and is no way to live. Ever attempted to tear off your ears in the middle of class just to shut out voices that aren't there? I have. The only solace in that is that since it's not progressed to full blown schizophrenia, I can recognize that the voices aren't real usually. You want people to have this freedom to live their life like that, but you have to understand these people are NOT themselves. They are being affected by a mental illness that affects their judgment and the way they think. Whether it's by medication or some other form of treatment, the people who suffer from these extreme mental illnesses should have the chance to live life without it affecting them, whether by the state taking action, or having their loved ones help them.

I will tell you right now, I would rather be dead than stop taking my medication.

A million times this.

It's a strange thing, but people seem to think, "I have a brain, therefore I am most qualified to understand my own brain".

As for drugs, I don't really get the knee jerk reaction; when you start to think of the human body as a set of processes, and chemicals as components of these processes, then you realise that there is really no difference between the things that we call "drugs", the things we call "chemicals" and the things we call "natural".

Too often doctors just slap people with prescriptions to make it better, never really looking for the cause of the symptoms.

That explain my stance?

People say this a lot, but the evidence is anecdotal at best.

And what should be done about this?? There are some good doctors, and there are some bad doctors. Health services do not have the resources to determine who is being "slapped with prescriptions" and who isn't.

EDIT: What moose said. I'd like to see an independent survey/research paper into the truth of this.

Edit: actually, never mind.

Electro Shock therapy is completely safe in the way it is used today. It is also extremely effective, up to 90% effectiveness in patients with severe depression and 60% in patients with therapy resistant depression.
It is a misconception that CBT is cheap, the time and expertise it takes make it rather expensive. Also it has been proven to be a very good therapy in many disorders (if done right) with a more long term benefit then many drugs. But in most cases the combination of both drugs and CBT is the treatment of first choice.

I'm inclined to agree: the OP's repetition of "I don't care" precludes much in the way of any sensible debate.

I'm going to lock this up now, because it has degenerated since this morning and the prognosis isn't good.

If anyone out there is suffering from any illness or discomfort - physical, mental or emotional - please seek help from a qualified practitioner and don't take seriously the nonsense on the internet.