No more prisoner to hero : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:21 pm

...because TES games have one story, one lore? I understand the appeal to change history and all that...but one of the things that sets TES aside is that it has SO MUCH lore and history tied to it. Very few game franchises can say that. What you're suggesting is that the lore is expendable to gameplay, which is akin to blasphemy

Ah the almighty lore haha people take that so seriously in TES that even bending the lore is considered blasphemy...hence why no dwemer return

I think with good writing you can write a flexible story that doesn't break lore, just tell a story where the outcome is the same but your characters part is unique to your game...if you don't have to fill the destined boots then your character is part of the story instead of the story being part of your character

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:56 pm

I actually really like the Prisoner-to-Hero thing. It's like a signature of the series and I think it makes sense within the context of each game, too. I think that if they took it out I'd probably miss it.

IDK just my two cents.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:45 pm

Because of the points that Blade Watcher just noted, I don't really have a problem with the opening/beginning as a prisoner. I do, however, have a quandary as to why every game needs to make you a hero. Why do I always have a destiny or a fate that's been foretold for hundreds of years. Why do I have to become the Champion of Cyrodiil, or the Dragonborn? Why can't the stories be a bit more complex, where you don't play the foretold hero fulfilling his/hers destiny and everyone seems to admire you even from the start?

For once I'd like to be the common man/woman caught in the middle of it all, trying to figure things out as best he/she can, not necessarily being the center of attention. With a great story that develops neatly and makes me feel that I'm actually making progress.

I'd like to see that for a change.

I've always thought it would be fun for the main character (the player) to be a companion to the hero. Sometimes you're with him on great quests; other times you get separated while he/she rescues the damsel and you're left to fend for yourself, or what have you. I think it would be a clever bit of writing to keep you involved in the main plot without having to be the center of it; or rather you become the hero when it falls to you at a critical moment. It would also give you time to pursue other endeavors while the hero is off heroing.

As to the prisoner beginnings, I rather enjoy them. I don't see it so much as trite as they are more of a tradition.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:35 am

The next TES needs a fresh story as that's getting stale IMO. If they must keep the prisoner beginning then i think it should be a revenge story where you are trying to rebuild your life as you seek those who took it away...no longer a hero but rather a soul searcher seeking destiny

what do you think?

no, the point is that the story is for the player to create, not for them to give you your own background to fix.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:39 am

Because of the points that Blade Watcher just noted, I don't really have a problem with the opening/beginning as a prisoner. I do, however, have a quandary as to why every game needs to make you a hero. Why do I always have a destiny or a fate that's been foretold for hundreds of years. Why do I have to become the Champion of Cyrodiil, or the Dragonborn? Why can't the stories be a bit more complex, where you don't play the foretold hero fulfilling his/hers destiny and everyone seems to admire you even from the start?

For once I'd like to be the common man/woman caught in the middle of it all, trying to figure things out as best he/she can, not necessarily being the center of attention. With a great story that develops neatly and makes me feel that I'm actually making progress.

I'd like to see that for a change.

You are the CHampion of Cyrodiil because you were recognized for your feats unlike some games where you are ignored completely? In Oblivion, you didn't save the day anyways, it was all Akatosh.

I've always thought it would be fun for the main character (the player) to be a companion to the hero. Sometimes you're with him on great quests; other times you get separated while he/she rescues the damsel and you're left to fend for yourself, or what have you. I think it would be a clever bit of writing to keep you involved in the main plot without having to be the center of it; or rather you become the hero when it falls to you at a critical moment. It would also give you time to pursue other endeavors while the hero is off heroing.

As to the prisoner beginnings, I rather enjoy them. I don't see it so much as trite as they are more of a tradition.

That's the Oblivion Main Quest dude.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:14 am

Ah the almighty lore haha people take that so seriously in TES that even bending the lore is considered blasphemy...hence why no dwemer return :wink:

I think with good writing you can write a flexible story that doesn't break lore, just tell a story where the outcome is the same but your characters part is unique to your game...if you don't have to fill the destined boots then your character is part of the story instead of the story being part of your character

It has nothing to do with how good the writing is (but it is, hee! )- look at how expansive and immersive the world is with the lore. All the decisions the NPC's make, all the quests, all tie back to it. How could they possibly build a world this huge with multiple lines of lore? If they didn't tie the quests and NPC's to the current political events, the complaint would be that the story is too generic! There's no way to win. The lore is important and is vital to the story, and writing that level of complexity into completely different directions would be nigh impossible. It took them five years to create Skyrim with ONE storyline, can you imagine if they needed to create two diverging, parallel stories?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:48 am

History forgets lots of details both in game and in real life. They just need to write future games' historic lore such that the civil war choice you made is irrelevant and forgotten. There are lots of possibilities that could overshadow it.

You save the entire *bleeping* world and it gets forgotten? Hee! Yeah, that's immersive and realistic

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:09 pm

You save the entire *bleeping* world and it gets forgotten? Hee! Yeah, that's immersive and realistic :smile:

Nobody talks about how Akatosh saved the world from the invasion of Mehrunes Dagon.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:59 pm

I don't think they need to outright change the prisoner tutorial. Although they could always do it in a different fashion.
Like being a mental patient who thinks they are in a prison and try to escape, only to get yourself in a [censored] load of trouble.
Or like Baldur's Gate II, you are an unaware divine aspect and a villain is trying to steal that powerful essence from you.

People are probably just tired of being the ye olde prisoner of the empire. The story needs to be freshened up, is all.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:55 pm

I think it’s running joke now. :tongue:

Regardless it is actually a good way to kick the game off. It puts the player in a position where you can give them the basics of what is happening, lets the player do pretty much whatever they want with the back-story and it means no matter what back-story you had it makes sense for you to start out with nothing.

Making it a revenge story forces a background and motives on your character.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:09 am

Well, no. Because you're supposed to create your own character, what if you're peaceful and have no urge to exact vengence on anything?

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:53 pm

1.The prisoner start is a signature move of the Elder Scrolls stories. It`s also quite original not being your typical cliche fantasy starts `young man who`s parents gets murdered, goes on revenge` or `intrepid heroe sets off from home to find fortune`...

2.It`s also perfect for setting up the character because it allows the Player to `roleplay` why he`s where he is. Is he really innocent? Did he actually commit a crime? what happened?

3.Stepping out from time in jail is like starting a new life which again is perfect for making a `new` character trying to make good.

I would think it`s sad if they changed the basic `being a prisoner` start.

Completely agree, I like the tradition and that they never say what you may have done or not done to be in the situation, especially in Oblivion, they elude more in Skyrim that you were at th wrong place at the wrong time, But I love the opening for this game much more climatic than the others

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:21 pm

You save the entire *bleeping* world and it gets forgotten? Hee! Yeah, that's immersive and realistic :smile:

You are getting mixed up between the beating of Alduin and which side you picked in the civil war.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:55 pm

The flaw becomes when they choose to do another Elder Scrolls game- whatever you did is part of history now. Look at Oblivion, the story is not only told in the books and lore, that event helped shape the politics that led up to the civil war.

How do you do that with two outcomes?

The Civil War is going to be a foot note in the history books. The Empire's decline is going to come about regardless of who is left running Skyrim. The History that is going to be taken from Skyrim is the Aldmeri Dominion is going to spark another war due to their treatment of the people.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:36 pm

You are the CHampion of Cyrodiil because you were recognized for your feats unlike some games where you are ignored completely? In Oblivion, you didn't save the day anyways, it was all Akatosh.

Alright, I can recognize the nuances. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that Tamriel doesn't have to be on the brink of doom every game, and you're the guy the legends have foretold about. It just seems so formulaic. I would love a story that had a completely different focus.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:59 pm

The flaw becomes when they choose to do another Elder Scrolls game- whatever you did is part of history now. Look at Oblivion, the story is not only told in the books and lore, that event helped shape the politics that led up to the civil war.

How do you do that with two outcomes?

Wouldn't be the first time, though. In one of the early games they had five possible endings, representing drastically different political outcomes. Of course the awkward compromise they came up with in the lore may explain why they don't want to do that again...

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:24 am

As well as a game though, it's a sandbox. Some people genuinely enjoy playing minor bit parts in the Elder Scrolls world. It's good that Bethesda still give us this choice.

yep i love my bit parts. ive done seperate guild master builds, ive done a pasifist and im considering a crazy but never really liked going on killing sprees, i liked my hunter just going about his thing, you dont have to be dragon born, why do you have to tell whiterun some one else will, its not like it will go unnoticed, rping a no body, you can just not speak to the earl for as long as you want no dragons and play what ever.
The prisonier set up is great imo as youve just been rounded up, who knows if you where crossing the boarder, or already her. As its just a freak mix up your character could be anyone.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:25 pm

1.The prisoner start is a signature move of the Elder Scrolls stories. It`s also quite original not being your typical cliche fantasy starts `young man who`s parents gets murdered, goes on revenge` or `intrepid heroe sets off from home to find fortune`...

2.It`s also perfect for setting up the character because it allows the Player to `roleplay` why he`s where he is. Is he really innocent? Did he actually commit a crime? what happened?

3.Stepping out from time in jail is like starting a new life which again is perfect for making a `new` character trying to make good.

I would think it`s sad if they changed the basic `being a prisoner` start.

I agree with this blade watcher. The Elder Scrolls has a trade mark opening as you starting as a prisoner. You can decide if your person really belongs in jail or if he was framed and sent there. And when you get out it just all makes sense if you choose to be evil or a frickin' goody-two shoes. But the character creation screen could be something like another jailmate is drawing a protrait of you just to pass the time and that is how you could create your person, so that it looks like a real time RPG :prod:

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:33 am

They don't really want to write your character's backstory for you. They just make prison a starting point of your tale.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:08 pm

It was a much shorter intro than Oblivion had.

While that's true, you could save at the exit grate in OB which allowed you to redesign your character. So you never had to do it more than once, it would be nice if there was a similar shortcut for Skyrim. Maybe the cave exit at the end of the Helgen Keep escape.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:16 am

But the character creation screen could be something like another jailmate is drawing a protrait of you just to pass the time and that is how you could create your person, so that it looks like a real time RPG :prod:

That makes a lot of sense. Good idea.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:34 pm

Prisoner is a good starting point because you can incorporate any race/class combo into the scenario.

I'd like to see them take a page from Dragon Age: Origins and Fable. Incorporate race-specific origins and use aging to get you through those first levels. Still, that's a tall order for a free-form game like the TES series.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:53 am

How about something like: You are sleeping in your home when it gets destroyed by a dragon Thu'um and a guard or someone important pulls you out of the rubble and asks if you are alright, who are you..etc.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:36 pm

How about something like: You are sleeping in your home when it gets destroyed by a dragon Thu'um and a guard or someone important pulls you out of the rubble and asks if you are alright, who are you..etc.

Which doesn't really give you the backstory as effectively as simply spending five minutes in the cart. The opening sequence of Skyrim is brilliant- in a concise amount of time you learn that Ulfric has killed or 'murdered' the king, that there is a rebel faction in Skyrim and that the populace is heavily divided on the issue. That's an incredible amount of detail given the time and it's delivered seamlessly into the intro of the tutorial.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:29 pm

It wouldn't be difficult for them to have a dozen multiple choice questions which, depending on your choices, will result in your character starting in a different area. You then have a different quest to follow up to a certain point where each path would converge.

Some of these questions, about your character's upbringing, could even impact starting skills.