We need help with an FAQ

Post » Sat May 26, 2012 12:03 pm

Mod Organizer
  • Steeper learning curve than NMM, but gentler than Wrye Bash.
  • Mods are not installed into the Data directory, so keeps the data directory clean (mod isolation).
  • Mods are installed to a separate directory, so installing new mods doesn't overwrite existing files.
  • Support for Steam Workshop auto-updating whilst still keeping mods isolated.
  • Nexus integration for easy download, update and installation of mods.
  • Partial compatibility with BAIN installers.

Mod Organiser doesn't support the new load order system, and from what I've read on the bug tracker, the author seems to think that isn't a problem. For that reason, I wouldn't recommend it. The mod isolation is also (IMHO) stupid because it adds totally unnecessary overhead and complexity, which means there's more to go wrong, and the last thing people need is for more complications than necessary when using mods. It's a clever concept, I'll freely say that, but it should really have never gotten past the concept stage.

What about Tes Mod Manager? I don't know much about it, other than it does support the new load order system.
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stevie critchley
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 6:02 pm

Mod Organiser doesn't support the new load order system, and from what I've read on the bug tracker, the author seems to think that isn't a problem. For that reason, I wouldn't recommend it. The mod isolation is also (IMHO) stupid because it adds totally unnecessary overhead and complexity, which means there's more to go wrong, and the last thing people need is for more complications than necessary when using mods. It's a clever concept, I'll freely say that, but it should really have never gotten past the concept stage.

What about Tes Mod Manager? I don't know much about it, other than it does support the new load order system.

I just went through all the Utilities category on Skyrim Nexus, and there are quite a few save managers. I saw TES Mod Manager, too.

Perhaps it would be best to only list details about Wrye Bash and NMM as they are the ones that are generally supported, but then mention that other utilities exist and refer people to the category listings? I think that offering details about too many options in a FAQ only introduces complexity, and modding is complex enough, as you just pointed out. :) So, maybe mentioning that other utilities are made within the community but allowing people to investigate/learn on their own would be better. That would be my input, at least.
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Soraya Davy
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 11:23 am

Mod Organiser doesn't support the new load order system, and from what I've read on the bug tracker, the author seems to think that isn't a problem. For that reason, I wouldn't recommend it. The mod isolation is also (IMHO) stupid because it adds totally unnecessary overhead and complexity, which means there's more to go wrong, and the last thing people need is for more complications than necessary when using mods. It's a clever concept, I'll freely say that, but it should really have never gotten past the concept stage.

What about Tes Mod Manager? I don't know much about it, other than it does support the new load order system.

Mod Organizer does support the new load ordering system, in that it orders plugins in their proper load order in plugins.txt. It just doesn't conform to the standard agreed by you, Kaburke and Lojack of ordering unloaded plugins in loadorder.txt. And I'm not sure what even happens as a result of that.

Also, how does mod isolation add totally unnecessary overhead and complexity?? It's no more complex than installing a mod via BAIN (i.e. with BAIN you place an archive in ..\Skyrim Mods\Bash Installers, and with MO you place a folder in ..Skyrim\Data\Mod Organizer\Mods), and it removes the overhead present in Bash of having to scan through the data folder and all the CRC checking in order to ensure everything is synced/warn if everything isn't. Switching profiles in BAIN (from let's say an FCOM installation to just a Frans + MMM installation) would take a long time. With Mod Organizer it's near on instantaneous.
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Nymph
 
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Post » Sun May 27, 2012 12:29 am

Mod Organizer does support the new load ordering system, in that it orders plugins in their proper load order in plugins.txt. It just doesn't conform to the standard agreed by you, Kaburke and Lojack of ordering unloaded plugins in loadorder.txt. And I'm not sure what even happens as a result of that.

Also, how does mod isolation add totally unnecessary overhead and complexity?? It's no more complex than installing a mod via BAIN (i.e. with BAIN you place an archive in ..\Skyrim Mods\Bash Installers, and with MO you place a folder in ..Skyrim\Data\Mod Organizer\Mods), and it removes the overhead present in Bash of having to scan through the data folder and all the CRC checking in order to ensure everything is synced/warn if everything isn't. Switching profiles in BAIN (from let's say an FCOM installation to just a Frans + MMM installation) would take a long time. With Mod Organizer it's near on instantaneous.
It means that things like the Bashed Patch, which rely on the ordering of inactive plugins, can no longer be created or updated without probably causing issues. It also means that if you change your load order in Mod Organiser, then open up something that does support loadorder.txt, your changes in MO are undone.

I stand corrected on the overhead, but the increase in complexity cannot be denied. From what I can tell (guessing, because the source doesn't appear to be available despite it being LGPL), it stacks files, with each file in the stack coming from a different mod, and the order decided by your install order and each stack representing a different path as if they were installed to Data. Everything that's run using MO's wrapper sees only the top file in each stack, so its identical to a normal install to everything but MO, which can see all the files in all the stacks. That's probably why it doesn't need to calculate CRCs or anything. So it's faster, but it is more complicated and doesn't actually make a bit of difference. Anything that cares about what's in Data will only see the top file in each stack, so will only see exactly the same thing as if you installed normally. That's if you run such a utility through MO. If you don't, said utility won't work with MO's setup and you get problems. Some stuff can't be used, like Script Dragon. I just cannot see any benefit other than speed, and because it's complicated, things are going to go wrong, and then everything you've built on this clever system will come crashing down. That's true for anything complex, but the more complicated, the worse it gets.

Anyway, this is probably not the best place for a to-ing and fro-ing over why I'm not a fan of MO, so I'll drop it. :)
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Ridhwan Hemsome
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 11:35 am

I agree with wrinklyninja on this one, but I'd also like to add that switching profile in Bash has always been very fast. I've never noticed any delays at all even when I was on an older system (and older version of Bash, of course). I'm not sure where the idea that switching a profile might take a long time even for large load lists. This hasn't been my experience, anyway. Of course, it might be longer in computer terms, but from a human perception, it's nearly instantaneous. :)

Anyway, as I mentioned, I think that listing the two examples that are the most commonly used/supported and letting people know there are various others out there that they can look up on their own is probably best in order to keep the FAQ as simple and clear as possible.
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Peetay
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 9:10 pm

From what I can tell (guessing, because the source doesn't appear to be available despite it being LGPL)
If this is actually the case (I haven't checked) then I wouldn't recommend listing it since that would make its distribution illegal according to the terms of the GPL/LGPL. I doubt Bethesda would wat to be seen as supporting something that's not in compliance with its own licensing.
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James Wilson
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 11:33 pm

If this is actually the case (I haven't checked) then I wouldn't recommend listing it since that would make its distribution illegal according to the terms of the GPL/LGPL. I doubt Bethesda would wat to be seen as supporting something that's not in compliance with its own licensing.

I can't see where it says it is licensed under LGPL. But the latest version attempts to support the BOSS load ordering system (although it doesn't use the BOSS API because of BOSS' license, so I assume that means he's using a different license).
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Averielle Garcia
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 7:01 pm

If this is actually the case (I haven't checked) then I wouldn't recommend listing it since that would make its distribution illegal according to the terms of the GPL/LGPL. I doubt Bethesda would wat to be seen as supporting something that's not in compliance with its own licensing.
I can't see where it says it is licensed under LGPL. But the latest version attempts to support the BOSS load ordering system (although it doesn't use the BOSS API because of BOSS' license, so I assume that means he's using a different license).
My bad, looks like I must have misread something - he mentions the LGPL license used by the Qt library, but just states that MO itself is "freeware". That's the second time I've misread something to do with MO, I must be needing a new pair of glasses or something...

In future, to be safe, if I say something about MO, disregard it. :P
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Astargoth Rockin' Design
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 1:15 pm

My bad, looks like I must have misread something - he mentions the LGPL license used by the Qt library, but just states that MO itself is "freeware". That's the second time I've misread something to do with MO, I must be needing a new pair of glasses or something...

In future, to be safe, if I say something about MO, disregard it. :tongue:

I misread the Qt bit for MO being licensed under LGPL as MO being under LGPL too, then I read his comment about the licenses and double checked. So it's not just you :P. His latest release (a beta) supports the LO standard as defined by BOSS, so hopefully it's stable and stays in future releases.
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Zoe Ratcliffe
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 3:03 pm

I've written up a general overview and introduction to all things skyrim in wiki format http://wiki.step-project.com/Guide:Skyrim_Installation there are also several other more specialized guides for skyrim in the wiki (troubleshooting, Wrye bash, a hardware guide, and more to come). I also highly recommend to include the official http://www.bethblog.com/2012/02/07/skyrim-mod-troubleshooting-best-practices/.
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Jeffrey Lawson
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 8:22 pm

Lots of helpful comments and suggestions here - keep them coming! :nod:
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El Goose
 
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Post » Sat May 26, 2012 11:11 pm

I've written up a general overview and introduction to all things skyrim in wiki format http://wiki.step-project.com/Guide:Skyrim_Installation there are also several other more specialized guides for skyrim in the wiki (troubleshooting, Wrye bash, a hardware guide, and more to come). I also highly recommend to include the official http://www.bethblog.com/2012/02/07/skyrim-mod-troubleshooting-best-practices/.

Echoing Fri's post but adding the link to http://wiki.step-project.com/Main_Page, which has links to several guides geared towards those new to the game of modding.....

EDIT: I am also constructing an introductory guide to DDSopt use as well (with Ethatron's a priori permission). This is really expanding into a much bigger project. I am using a highly repetitive process to benchmark all of the big texture packs and the effect of DDSopt. A preliminary look can be found on the http://forum.step-project.com/showthread.php?tid=19&pid=1623#pid1623.
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Silvia Gil
 
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