We need help with an FAQ : V

» Sat May 26, 2012 12:45 pm

We are looking into creating a Pinned Sticky thread for Skyrim Modding FAQ's. We seek input from the modding community as to what should be in there concerning mods in general and specific to Skyrim. However, understand the admins have to bless the content before it can be pinned. So, we need content that can pass muster.

Please post in this thread suggestions, either the text you would like to see posted, or a topic you want covered. I am sure most of what needs to be said has already been posted here in the Skyrim Mods section at least once. If so, you can use the Quote button in that thread and paste it here. Also, lets limit this to the finding, installing, managing and use of mods. Creation Kit questions should only apply where it is needed to fix mod compatibility or use a mod, not create one.

Please do not spam the thread up with "This is a great idea" posts. We know that. :smile:

However, this will have to get compiled and I would like a volunteer to assist with that. My real world schedule is going to be busy this week. Once we have something to work with, we will run it past the forum gods, namely Gstaff and Nick.

» Sat May 26, 2012 9:26 am

Bump just to get this started

» Sat May 26, 2012 2:47 pm

Okay I will start the faqs off..

started this a long time ago in hope that it would get sticked has well,

A listing of places where you can download and upload sites..Need to add steamworks is all..

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1339368-info-where-can-i-uploaddownload-skyrim-mods-info

» Sat May 26, 2012 5:55 pm

Okay I will start the faqs off..

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1339368-info-where-can-i-uploaddownload-skyrim-mods-info

Perfect, we can use your post as is. If there are any other sites that should be added to that, we can adjust it as necessary. As for Steam, that would probably be it's own post or posts.

Note, I use mods, but in other games. I have been avoiding using a number of mods myself until the patching season is over. So, that is why I am asking for input from those who are masters at using mods and this game. If it was left up to me, the masses would be storming my house as I led them down the path of Mayhem...

I am just gathering the collective wisdom.

» Sat May 26, 2012 9:45 pm

Let me search through the forums and find some more stuff that we have created like this has well..load order and bsa order

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1353517-important-load-order-and-you/

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1354395-update-bsas-and-you/

» Sat May 26, 2012 7:46 pm

Adapted from my Load Order and You thread:

Skyrim's Load Order System

Introduction

Load ordering is the method used to determine how conflicts between mod plugins (.esp, .esm files) should be decided. If two plugins alter the same game data, then the changes made by the plugin loading later will override those made by the plugin loading earlier. This "rule of one" results in a list of plugins, with those earlier in the list having any conflicting changes overriden by those later in the list. This list is the load order of the plugins.

A game will only load the plugins that are active. Up to 255 plugins, including the game's .esm file, can be active at any one time. Active plugins are listed in the game's "plugins.txt" file, which is stored in the user's local application data folder. Nevertheless, it is useful when working with load orders to consider the load order of all plugins, even if only some of them will actually be loaded. This is both because it is easier to display a single list of plugins than a list and an unordered set, and because modders have engineered methods that allow the changes made by inactive plugins to be loaded by another plugin (eg. Wrye Bash's Bashed Patch). When any such methods are being used, the load order of inactive plugins decides which plugins override others, similar to as if they were active.

Skyrim uses a different system to that used in previous games, introduced in Skyrim v1.4.26, in which load order is decide by the order in which plugins are listed in "plugins.txt". This differs from the load order system of previous versions of Skyrim and Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas, which used the relative timestamps of plugins in the game's Data directory. As such, many third-party utilities that interact with load order have had to be updated to work with the new system.

Some utilities have already been updated: others have yet to be updated. It's a good idea to check if the utilities you use need updating or not, and whether updates are available.

What This Means For... Mod Makers & Users

The bad news: Any utilities that you use to manage load order may not have any effect, depending on whether or not they support the new system. Skyrim's launcher can be used to manage the load order of active plugins if all else fails.

One very important thing is that if you have a utility that can handle the textfile-based system, do not use Skyrim's launcher to set load order. This is because it doesn't know about the total load order, so if you change the load order through it, only the active load order changes and synchronisation between the two is lost. The only way for a utility to re-sync the two load orders is to undo the changes you made in the launcher.

The good news: Nothing changes when it comes to making or using mods, it's just business as usual. Just bear in mind the point about the utilities you use to manage load order may needing updating, and if that is the case, have patience while the programmers do their thing.

If you want to manually set your load order instead of using Skyrim's launcher, the instructions below may be of use:

Open your plugins.txt in a text editor. plugins.txt is found in your local application data folder. On Windows Vista/7, this is C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Local\Skyrim\plugins.txt. This is a hidden folder, so you will either need to type it into your Windows Explorer address bar or change the relevant viewing settings.
In plugins.txt, list the plugins you want active in the load order that you want them in. Each plugin goes on a separate line. Master files should go before non-master files. Merged or imported plugins are not active plugins, so should not be listed in plugins.txt.
If you also have a loadorder.txt in the same folder as plugins.txt, then update it so that the plugins in plugins.txt are in the same order in both files.
Save the edited file(s) and quit.
Don't try to then edit your load order through the Skyrim launcher. It has been reported to reset your load order if you set it up manually.

What This Means For... Mod Utility Programmers

The bad news: Your utilities will no longer function when it comes to load order (both getting and setting) until you update them to support the current system. As well as that, the major change in the new system is that inactive plugins no longer have a position in the load order, which makes it very difficult to both represent those plugins in a meaningful way, and also causes problems with techniques that use inactive plugins such as Bashed Patch merging and importing.

The good news: Lojack (Wrye Bash), Kaburke (Nexus Mod Manager) and WrinklyNinja (BOSS) have developed a standard (known as textfile-based load ordering) that utilities can follow to avoid issues with the new load order system. Total load order is to be stored in a "loadorder.txt" file, itself stored in the same location as "plugins.txt". "plugins.txt" would be kept in synchronisation with "loadorder.txt" so that the order of plugins that the game loaded was the same for both files, but the latter would allow the load ordering of inactive plugins.

A full description of the standard can be found in the BOSS API Readme, with the BOSS API being a full implementation of the standard that also supports the timestamp-based system used by earlier games through the same interface. The BOSS API also includes various functions for querying and changing load order and activation status, so is convenient for those who want to avoid having to write their own code to handle the different systems. Note that the BOSS API is licensed under the GNU GPL v3.0 license, so your utility's license will have to comply with that to use the API. If your utility's license is such that you cannot use the API, it's still worth looking at the BOSS API's readme for the information on the textfile-based load order standard. The BOSS API is included in the download packages for BOSS v2.0 and later.

I'd also suggest that Lojack's BSAs and You thread be adapted.

» Sat May 26, 2012 1:05 pm

Question: I deleted mod X, why is it still affecting my save game?

Answer: Certain mods may contain scripts that are not stored in the plugin files and may affect your save game even after the mod has been disabled or deleted. If this occurs you may need to revert to an older savegame from before you installed the mod in question. It is helpful to have a clean savegame (with no mods) on file which you can use solely for testing mods before you decide to use them.

» Sat May 26, 2012 1:40 pm

Adapted from my Load Order and You thread:

I'd also suggest that Lojack's BSAs and You thread be adapted.

Please link them or ask them if they have a FAQ version of this.

In fact, that would be best with some of these longer posts and explanations. Full understanding is good, but the FAQ should be more of a Cliff's Notes for the issues. They can always link their original threads for a complete explanation of why and how. Or, we could put that in spoiler tags. But the main purpose of the FAQ is "Here is how you make it work" if that is possible. I know some of these processes are lengthy and complex.

» Sat May 26, 2012 10:06 pm

Please link them or ask them if they have a FAQ version of this.

I requested and reported my own post on the very same subject earlier today ...

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1354395-update-bsas-and-you/page__view__findpost__p__20412720

I wondered also if CorePC's topic had been noticed - Good to see it has now

» Sat May 26, 2012 9:21 am

Perhaps we can adapt the "Oblivion Mod Facts" - the general stuff "How to Install Mods", "Tools", etc section..But Reflect Skyrim Instead aka instead of beth directory, steam directories, where OBMM is listed we have Wyre Bash, Steamworks, Nexus Mod Manager instead etc..

» Sun May 27, 2012 12:34 am

For a Modding FAQ we could also do with a section on UAC - If WrinklyNinja would not mind, an adaptation from his BOSS read me I think would be Ideal with mention of links to moving steam location as necessary ..

File Permissions

If you are running Windows Vista or Windows 7, Modding programs (Such as Nexus Mod Manager, Wrye Smash and BOSS) may be prevented from working correctly by the UAC security feature. There are four common workarounds to this problem:

1. Install the game outside the Program Files (or Program Files (x86) if on 64-bit Windows). UAC prevents unauthorised edits to these folders, so by installing the game outside of them, you remove it from UAC's reach, allowing you to use mods more easily. See Moving a Steam Installation https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7418-YUBN-8129

2. Deactivate UAC. This can be done from the Control Panel, and will turn UAC off across the whole of your computer. It is up to you whether you feel that you have adequate security measures in place to do this without risk.

3. Give yourself Full Control permissions over your game install folder. This will allow you to make any edits you desire while keeping UAC active and on guard for any edits made by programs you do not run, and also means that you do not need to reinstall your game to a new location.

4. Run your Modding Programs as an Administrator. For example to give BOSS administrator elevation - Right-click the BOSS.exe and BOSS GUI.exe, and select Run as administrator.

For those that wish to take the third option and give themselves Full Control permissions, here is a guide:

1. Right-click the folder you wish to change the permissions for, and select Properties.
2. In Properties, select the Security tab, and click the Edit... button. A UAC prompt may appear, simply allow yourself to continue.
3. In the Group or user names box, select the Users option.
4. In the lower box, check the box opposite Full Control in the Allow column. Press OK to exit. If a UAC prompt appears, allow the change.
5. In the Properties window, select OK to exit. You should now have Full Control permissions over your chosen folder.

» Sat May 26, 2012 5:33 pm

Please link them or ask them if they have a FAQ version of this.

In fact, that would be best with some of these longer posts and explanations. Full understanding is good, but the FAQ should be more of a Cliff's Notes for the issues. They can always link their original threads for a complete explanation of why and how. Or, we could put that in spoiler tags. But the main purpose of the FAQ is "Here is how you make it work" if that is possible. I know some of these processes are lengthy and complex.

The trouble with that is that these forums have a habit of pruning threads, so any threads that are linked to in short FAQs would end up disappearing. This will be even more pronounced with Skyrim's popularity.

I'll try to FAQ-ise my thread OP some more, but you can't totally condense the information contained, a block of text will be necessary at some point. If you want the information available on this forum, which is the most appropriate place that I can think of, the only solution is a sticky. I'll post an FAQ-ised version of my thread OP in a bit.

@ Alt3rn1ty: Permission granted.

» Sat May 26, 2012 2:56 pm

The trouble with that is that these forums have a habit of pruning threads, so any threads that are linked to in short FAQs would end up disappearing. This will be even more pronounced with Skyrim's popularity.

That is why we will probably put the details in a spoiler tag. It would just be nice to have some synopsis's type of entries for the longer ones.

» Sat May 26, 2012 4:26 pm

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1324942-posting-guidelines/ is a very good thread on how to make posts here. The first post has pretty much everything in it.

» Sat May 26, 2012 8:33 pm

Well, I think there are some great points made in the following thread from the Creation Kit forum. Even though it is the CK and aimed at creators of mods, a lot of the points are critical for users, too.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1362474-compatibility-with-other-mods-tips/

Ultimately, a major stress needs to be placed on people understanding that their save games MAY become unusable as the game changes, and certainly as mods come out. This is true for both pre- and post-CK mods and the saves made with them. Also, problems with saves may not appear right away and players may be able to continue for quite some time before the problems kick in.

Basically, I think that a major stress point is for all users to understand that it is not the fault of mod makers or Bethesda that their game may possibly become unstable or even unusable. It happens. People have problems in linear games such as Bioware's products, too, or more open games such as Civilization. If we understand that, we can still enjoy ourselves without getting nasty.

» Sat May 26, 2012 3:15 pm

After the kinks are ironed out of Wrye Bash, an Idiot's Guide to Bashed Patches will be a must.

» Sat May 26, 2012 1:11 pm

After the kinks are ironed out of Wrye Bash, an Idiot's Guide to Bashed Patches will be a must.

That's utility-specific, so a better place for that would be in Wrye Bash's docs.

» Sun May 27, 2012 1:31 am

After the kinks are ironed out of Wrye Bash, an Idiot's Guide to Bashed Patches will be a must.

i'll be the idiot doing another pictorial guide on sky nexus for Wrye Smash :smile:

. I think someone already did a topic on this forum about that though a while back.

Its too early days yet though, but the oblivion one in my sig is still okay with a bit of adaptation to the new.

The new Wrye Bash help file is coming along nicely too which WrinklyNinja is putting together http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1356741-relz-wrye-bash/page__st__30__p__20482577#entry20482577

Edit: Ninja'd :ninja:

» Sat May 26, 2012 10:31 pm

Question: What Is Load Order, Why Is It Important, and How Do I Set It?

Answer:

Load order is the order in which Skyrim loads your mod plugins. It is important because it decides how conflicts between plugins should be handled. If two plugins change the same thing, then the later loading plugin will have its changes override the earlier loading plugin's changes.

Load order can be set in the Skyrim launcher, or by using a third-party utility, or even by hand. The easiest way to set the load order for many plugins is to use http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=6, which will automatically set the correct load order for the plugins it recognises. Because BOSS doesn't recognise every plugin out there, you will probably also have to then set the load order of unrecognised plugins using the Skyrim launcher, or another utility such as http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/content/modmanager/, http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=1840 or http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=5010.

Note: the way load order is set in Skyrim was changed in February 2012, so many utilities that use or change it no longer function correctly. Make sure that the utilities you use have been updated to work with the new system, or you risk running into game-breaking issues. At time of writing (9th April 2012), BOSS, Nexus Mod Manager and TES Mod Manager work with the new system, with a Wrye Bash update being worked on. The status of other utilities is unknown.

Further details (adapted from the Load Order and You thread):

Spoiler

Skyrim's Load Order System

Introduction

Load ordering is the method used to determine how conflicts between mod plugins (.esp, .esm files) should be decided. If two plugins alter the same game data, then the changes made by the plugin loading later will override those made by the plugin loading earlier. This "rule of one" results in a list of plugins, with those earlier in the list having any conflicting changes overriden by those later in the list. This list is the load order of the plugins.

A game will only load the plugins that are active. Up to 255 plugins, including the game's .esm file, can be active at any one time. Active plugins are listed in the game's "plugins.txt" file, which is stored in the user's local application data folder. Nevertheless, it is useful when working with load orders to consider the load order of all plugins, even if only some of them will actually be loaded. This is both because it is easier to display a single list of plugins than a list and an unordered set, and because modders have engineered methods that allow the changes made by inactive plugins to be loaded by another plugin (eg. Wrye Bash's Bashed Patch). When any such methods are being used, the load order of inactive plugins decides which plugins override others, similar to as if they were active.

Skyrim uses a different system to that used in previous games, introduced in Skyrim v1.4.26, in which load order is decide by the order in which plugins are listed in "plugins.txt". This differs from the load order system of previous versions of Skyrim and Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas, which used the relative timestamps of plugins in the game's Data directory. As such, many third-party utilities that interact with load order have had to be updated to work with the new system.

Some utilities have already been updated: others have yet to be updated. It's a good idea to check if the utilities you use need updating or not, and whether updates are available.

What This Means For... Mod Makers & Users

The bad news: Any utilities that you use to manage load order may not have any effect, depending on whether or not they support the new system. Skyrim's launcher can be used to manage the load order of active plugins if all else fails.

The good news: Nothing changes when it comes to making or using mods, it's just business as usual. Just bear in mind the point about the utilities you use to manage load order may needing updating, and if that is the case, have patience while the programmers do their thing.

If you want to manually set your load order instead of using Skyrim's launcher, the instructions below may be of use:

Open your plugins.txt in a text editor. plugins.txt is found in your local application data folder. On Windows Vista/7, this is C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Local\Skyrim\plugins.txt. This is a hidden folder, so you will either need to type it into your Windows Explorer address bar or change the relevant viewing settings.
In plugins.txt, list the plugins you want active in the load order that you want them in. Each plugin goes on a separate line. Master files should go before non-master files. Merged or imported plugins are not active plugins, so should not be listed in plugins.txt.
If you also have a loadorder.txt in the same folder as plugins.txt, then update it so that the plugins in plugins.txt are in the same order in both files.
Save the edited file(s) and quit.
Don't try to then edit your load order through the Skyrim launcher. It has been reported to reset your load order if you set it up manually.

What This Means For... Mod Utility Programmers

The bad news: Your utilities will no longer function when it comes to load order (both getting and setting) until you update them to support the current system. As well as that, the major change in the new system is that inactive plugins no longer have a position in the load order, which makes it very difficult to both represent those plugins in a meaningful way, and also causes problems with techniques that use inactive plugins such as Bashed Patch merging and importing.

The good news: Lojack (Wrye Bash), Kaburke (Nexus Mod Manager) and WrinklyNinja (BOSS) have developed a standard (known as textfile-based load ordering) that utilities can follow to avoid issues with the new load order system. Total load order is to be stored in a "loadorder.txt" file, itself stored in the same location as "plugins.txt". "plugins.txt" would be kept in synchronisation with "loadorder.txt" so that the order of plugins that the game loaded was the same for both files, but the latter would allow the load ordering of inactive plugins.

A full description of the standard can be found in the BOSS API Readme, with the BOSS API being a full implementation of the standard that also supports the timestamp-based system used by earlier games through the same interface. The BOSS API also includes various functions for querying and changing load order and activation status, so is convenient for those who want to avoid having to write their own code to handle the different systems. Note that the BOSS API is licensed under the GNU GPL v3.0 license, so your utility's license will have to comply with that to use the API. If your utility's license is such that you cannot use the API, it's still worth looking at the BOSS API's readme for the information on the textfile-based load order standard. The BOSS API is included in the download packages for BOSS v2.0 and later.

Is that better?

» Sat May 26, 2012 3:10 pm

You'll need to take PES off that list of download sites soon: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1363941-planetelderscrolls-will-no-longer-support-new-files-from-the-1st-of-may/

» Sat May 26, 2012 10:46 am

That's utility-specific, so a better place for that would be in Wrye Bash's docs.

True, however third party tools are almost a requirement to run a large mod mix, so we should talk about the use of these tools. Again, the FAQ can be for a synopsis, where the tool specific threads can take care of the details.

» Sat May 26, 2012 11:47 am

Looking for more input into this. Remember, the more that is put into the FAQ< the less times you will have to see the same question over and over again.

» Sat May 26, 2012 11:29 am

True, however third party tools are almost a requirement to run a large mod mix, so we should talk about the use of these tools. Again, the FAQ can be for a synopsis, where the tool specific threads can take care of the details.

It might also be a question of quality rather than quantity. For example, running a bunch of texture replacers is not difficult aside from understanding that replacers that change the same texture will have the last one overwrite anything earlier. No need for Bash or other utilities even though they are still useful (i.e., large volumes of replacer mods don't require a 3rd party utility like Bash). However, a single mod that is a major overhaul of many element so the game, or perhaps a large quest mod, will definitely benefit from a utility.

Maybe this distinction could be explained.

People just need to understand from the outset that it won't be "plug n play."

» Sat May 26, 2012 12:17 pm

Q: What are Mod Managers? How do I use them?

A: There are two well know mod managers, and a selection of lesser known managers. The two well know mod managers are the http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/content/modmanager/ and http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=1840. A lesser known mod manager is http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=1334. Mod managers are used to install mods, as well as manage the load order of mods. For users with many mods or advanced load orders they generally become essential (although a few still prefer manual installation). Here is an overview of these three managers:

All three managers have the following features:

Built in Load Order management
Mod installation/un-installation

Wrye Bash and Mod Organizer both have the following features NMM does not have:

Profile management, allowing different profiles/saves to load different mods.
Install order management (different to load order management)
Save game viewer

Nexus Mod Manager (NMM)

Very intuitive and easy to use. Gentle learning curve.
Automatic updating of Nexus mods (Premium account required). Notifies free users when an update is available.
Can download straight to NMM from the Nexus sites.
Advanced installation options of NMM mods.

Wrye Bash

Steeper learning curve than NMM.
Many advanced features, such as the Bashed Patch, ini edits and many more (too many to list).
Save manager allows for easy set up of different mod installs.
Advanced mod installation options (BAIN).
Advanced installation options using BAIN wizards.
Overall the most powerful mod manager.

Mod Organizer

Steeper learning curve than NMM, but gentler than Wrye Bash.
Mods are not installed into the Data directory, so keeps the data directory clean (mod isolation).
Mods are installed to a separate directory, so installing new mods doesn't overwrite existing files.
Support for Steam Workshop auto-updating whilst still keeping mods isolated.
Nexus integration for easy download, update and installation of mods.
Partial compatibility with BAIN installers.

» Sat May 26, 2012 11:33 pm

@AliTheLord:

Good summary. It would probably be useful to stress that NMM came from the earlier OBMM and FOMM, and that it is currently in beta development, while Wrye Bash has continually evolved from its original incarnation in Oblivion (or even earlier with Wrye Mash for Morrowind) so that's a major reason why it offers so many more advanced features.

It might also be good to stress that managers like NMM cover both TES and FO games (Oblivion, FO3, FONV, and Skyrim) while Bash only covers Oblivion and Skyrim (with ports of Bash for FO3 and FONV created and maintained by a different team).

Obviously, these items would be explained a bit more clearly than I have done, but I think they are important to mention in explaining what mod managers are, at least when listing the specific examples.

A final note might be made about many smaller utilties such as the many save game managers available. Perhaps a pointer to a separate topic for other utilities (not stuff like Blender, mind you, but utilities specific to Beth games such as BSA extractors/archivers, sound extractors/archivers, etc.).