That, and their versions of it were probably actually less stable than what we have.

In a development environment, it's not unusual for a new version of the sdk to be distributed on a very regular basis (think almost daily, sometimes more! really depends on the project, though), meaning the version they were using on a given day could have had only its most key features tested before it got to them.

Seem crazy? Wonder how they managed to get anything done? That's just the nature of it. They at least had someone they could walk over to or shoot a quick email to if they needed an answer about something, but that's their only advantage.

Well, that's(the position) where all deleted things get dumped at. Don't know if it's related to that cell creating though.

I just have one simple request "For the Suits/Powers That Be" for your future dealings with your 'consumers' Bethesda...

Don't treat us like we're idiots and be honest with us.

Everything else (hopefully) can be sorted out, but start with that simple thing... It will go a long way.

Regarding the 0,0 worldspace cell. I was asking because after converting to an esm file in the CK, all of my Tamriel worldspace objects were moved to this cell. Funny thing is, the game worked fine for most, but for some their game crashed every time they tried to save. After tests using TESVSnip, I discovered the cause of the crashes to be the 0,0 cell. After deleting the cell, all of the objects I placed in the Tamriel worldspace then moved to an interior cell I had created. So I overwrote the esm file with an esp, moving all of the objects back into the Tamriel worldspace. No more save game crashes...

Just curious if anyone else had noticed this.

I've read about this issue and also had it in one of my maps I think, but not in the one I'm making right now it seems.
Anyway, these floating lod trees in that picture of mine surely have nothing to do with that.

I would really like to have an "official answer"

WILL Bethesda fix the worldspace creation bugs? Lods and all rest?

Will Behtesda fix the CK lod creation?

Wow just found this thread today and it's awesome. Thanks for the responses!! I'm also curious about lod generation..

The Creation Kit isn't even working for me. Sure, it fires up fine, but the second I try to add a script to a quest the Creation Kit crashes. This means that I can't do anything.

Nah it works, you just have to do it a certain way. Try these 2 things as I forgot which works.

Add the script as the first thing done to the quest, then save.
Add the script as the last thing done to the quest, then save.

Giving this a shot.

Thank you.

Merge esp to esp and merge esp to master would be pretty crucial as things progress. But like most requests, we will get what Bethesda decide to give rather than what we need.

.
http://www.gamesas.com/user/788297-arcedwan/, such are some of the little problems with the CKs IDE - but then, I have difficulty computing the simple fact that Microsoft haven't fixed the focus-theft bug which has been plaguing their operating systems ever since they moved beyond the Windows 95/98/ME series. This speaks to another area which could bear some improvement. Within a single IDE, it boils down to the developer to ensure that the correct form stays in focus. As far as I can tell, an old bug which would unselect a multiple selection without warning (and seemingly at random) was squashed some time prior to the CK - and that is a big relief. But there is a novice trap still present which will definitely have an adverse effect on how effectively new users will learn how to use the tool. It is very simple, really. If one brings up the object reference window, by double clicking the object in the render window, the object reference window appears dead centre. So if one clicks in the render window the object reference window "disappears". If one is editing multiple object reference windows, sometimes a window gets "lost" behind the render window et voila! The tool can't save because of what seems to be a phantom object reference window which is still open. Of course, all one has to do is move the render window to find it - but how many first-time modders would think of something like that straight away? The related workflow issue is that one is forever repositioning object reference windows, to the top and right, where they can be quickly selected as more render window activities are performed. If reference object windows were tiled horizontally from the right as they were opened, it could save some time when fine-tuning object alignments - and, perhaps, speed up the learning process a little for people new to the tool. Another way this kind of issue is handled is to shell some things out to separate programs. I.e. it may be possible to shell object reference[ window]s out as separate processes with a separate tab on the Windows start bar.
.
While I'm at it, something else which comes to mind concerns a request I made some time ago - for a http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1302743-req-sizeable-weather-effect-exclusion-subspace/page__p__19607915#entry19607915 which can be positioned under shelters in external cells to prevent the visual effect of precipitation (rain and snow) from propagating inside the shelter by concealing the effect within the subspace. This would make open buildings, with their interiors laid out in the external cell, far more compelling. In Skyrim, the problem was tackled by giving these outbuildings damaged or incomplete roofing, which is convincing except for the unlikelyhood that anyone would put up with a leaky roof for more than five minutes, especially in bitterly cold climates. I still haven't figured out which subspace model property to tweak in Nifscope, but I'm convinced there is a way to make something like this work - and I think it would enrich the game's immersion.

It wouldn't work. You're looking in the wrong direction by scouring nifskope settings. Rain is a post-process screen rendering shader and has nothing to do with actual models or collision or anything.

Which is pretty sad, considering games like the Gothic series have had properly functioning rain for their entire lifespans and are in entirely seamless worlds to boot. Only in Gothic 4 were there ever any loading screens to deal with, and I think there was all of 3 of those dividing the 3 major sections of the island.

.
http://www.gamesas.com/user/786452-aezeal/, I like to say: I mod, therefore I am.
.
Now, I think this kind of statement (which you and I are trading in) has the potential to communicate something slightly different to what was intended by the realist maxim, "I am aware, therefore I am". Perhaps it is awareness or consciousness that Descartes had in mind when he said, "Je pense donc je suis" ("I think, therefore I am"). Someone else might have said, "I feel [emotion] therefore I am" or "I sense [physical phenomena], therefore I am". However thinking, feeling, and sensation are all dependent on awareness, without which none are possible in any conscious sense. So, from a strictly logical perspective, the correct statement would be:
.
"I am aware, therefore I am"
.
Of course, always be very wary of the fact that logic often conceals what it omits, and whatever is of relevance that is not addressed invalidates the logic which omits it. For example, while "I am aware, therefore I am" is logical, the statements "I mod, therefore I am" or even, "I think, therefore I am" are arguably non-sequiteur (and thus illogical) because, by skipping the logical statement dealing with awareness they fail to address the nature of the action that applies. Consequently, some Therevada Buddhists have been known to respond to Descartes' Cogito (above-quoted) by interpreting his "thinking" to be meagre delusion. In my case, I have no published mods, so what evidence is there that I mod? The same cannot be said of awareness and, whether this awareness is distorted by delusion or not, it cannot spring from nothing.
.
However, it is worth noting that a statement constructed in the fashion of Descartes' Cogito can, as a metaphor, communicate the idea that the action characterises something of ourselves; especially something we take profound joy in doing; something that makes us feel alive; an action which makes us feel good about ourselves. And so, I like to say,
.

I mod, therefore I am!

.

.
Thank you http://www.gamesas.com/user/176330-arthmoor/,
.
It sounds like it is the various precipitation shaders that need to be modified (i.e so as not to apply to volumes defined by a specific subspace). I've never tried to modify a shader before. I wonder how it might be done?
.
Thanks in advance...

From my understanding it's not "free" : isn't it part of the package when you buy the game ? It's a real sales incentive, some will buy Skyrim for modding with the CK and not just "play". Whatever the perception some would like us to have, the reality is that the advent of a CK was in itself a selling point for me (even though it could "legally" be considered differently)... So yes, for me having a working CK is as important as having a working engine/game : a "gift" that don't work is a "poisoned gift", and marketers know about this (is your house cluttered with such "gifts"? No, that's the point)... Which is why Bethesda MUST address these CK/esp issues (navmesh, object not being rendered in ext. cells/LOD problems, http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1365744-big-bug-leveled-items-lists-dont-work/, etc.) : if it wasn't for the promise of a CK, for the promise of having FUN modding, as well as for the promise of technical support & patches so as to "finish" a product that was barely ready for release (in 2011, a part of Skyrim's "gaming experience" relied too much on the use of the console and working around bugs), I would've never bought this game.

Bethesda know this and are doing the very least to honor their promises for which their customers have paid, fortunately. But it's not a "GIft" : marketwise, it's a responsibility they must undertake given their product, its specific nature and the market niche it has developed for its own.

In a word NO.

The CK is NOT part of the game and the game was never sold or marketed with any written statement suggesting otherwise.
I've just read the CD cover and the paraphernalia inside, and nowhere does it mention the inclusion of a Creation Kit.

Bethesda released it, not out of neccesity, but as a favour to the modding community, They're just trying to make thing a little easier for us.
How many other game studios release their developement software to the public ?...not many.

Well, yes, but they DID make it really clear that they would release the CK and that there would be mods available.
On Steam right now it is marketed along with the promise of User-Created Content.

That's not to say that Bethesda doesn't respect and value their modders on their own merits, but I'm sure the commercial value of them has not gone unnoticed.
People's ability to make mods increases the value of the game. It means that when you finish the game, there's more to do, whether this be to MAKE mods or to PLAY them.

I wrote : ? even though it could "legally" be considered differently ?. I was not talking about "official and legal stuff" written on the package, you know this (unless you haven't read what I wrote). I was not talking either on behalf of some lawyer or judge here : it's just for lifting out a question of principle, obliging no one but ethical considerations, that's all. And I don't think that Bethesda people will get that paranoid into misinterpreting what I really wanted to say (if they get to read this thread). On the opposite, I clearly stated that they are doing the right thing... But that it shouldn't be considered as a "Gift", more as a responsibility (why do you think that laws exist to protect consumers from false advertisemant? For the same reasons and principle), that's all what I meant...

It's "free" ? It would be "free" if I could download it without some proof of having purchased Skyrim (I know it would be totally useless without the game, but that's not the point). Do not mistake : when you give a "Gift" to someone with the goal of improving your business, it's not a "Gift". As for competitive servicing, warranties, value-added accessories, it's NOT a gift : it's a sales incentive, a marketing strategy, a powerful competitive/growth lever for a value-added product. I bought Skyrim especially for modding a fabulous open world : I played the game only once so as to get acquainted with the resources and mechanics, my goal being to have fun modding during some of my leisure time (currently only for myself, trying to fight my way out of bugs). That's why I bought it for PC, else I would've just use my console and rent the game for a week. And I don't think Bethesda Skyrim's sales would've been as high if they didn't include the CK, a tool already expected before release by the gamers and modding community (given Bethesda's product history with the TES line of titles and other titles relying on the same engine), as well as announced by Bethesda's representatives - which should be as good for consumers as having it written on the DVD box btw!... Thus, the CK is part of the product, as a "value-added" feature that is good for their market competitiveness (and for us). at least on the PC platform. Many people who love that game also bought it for the reason it was proclaimed as "more easily moddable than ever" (in other words).... All that said, of course we cannot "demand" anything related to the CK : apart from legal matters, if I was solely playing Skyrim I'd rather see game bugs resolved before anything else, for that's the only thing customers have legally bought a license (whatever the individual intention like playing, modding and playing, or solely modding). But in reality and in regards to the TES line of titles as well as Bethesda's stance with a huge modding community, that's far from being the sole intention and expectation, it's part of Bethesda's market assets and dealings, it's not a "gift"...

As a conclusion for the above, Turn_on_a_Dime "phrased" it well :

They advertised it far ahead of the game as being released with the game or shortly after so the customer is entitled to take that into account "in the round" when purchasing and has a case to hear (not a case found) when that expectation made prior to purchase is not realised through no fault of the consumer.

Bethesda are under no obligiation to fix anything in the CK but are under an obligation to ensure the game is fit for purpose, that means it can be played to a reasonable standard. However obligiation or not, if they neglect to satisfy the customer via the CK, the customer is entirely able to never buy another product from them again. We can argue this back and forth for years, but the proof of the pudding will be the response of the customer to their next product. If this is as good as Skyrim and the CK gets, they wont get my money. What about yours?

In a word "yes" but dont take my word for it, take Todd Howards.

"There was never any reason to believe that http://www.play.com/Search.html?searchstring=The+Elder+Scrolls+V:+Skyrim+&searchtype=allproducts&searchsource=0 wouldn’t be continuing the Bethesda tradition of offering players the chance to tweaks and modify the http://gamerant.com/elder-scrolls-5-skyrim-modding-tools-release-close-launch-dyce-95165/# as they wished, but now we have a better idea of just how long we’ll have to wait. http://gamerant.com/tag/skyrim/‘s director Todd Howard has given a recent update on the game’s production, explaining that while the team still intends to have the Creation Kit ready to download on the game’s launch day, the team doesn’t foresee any massive delays."

http://gamerant.com/elder-scrolls-5-skyrim-modding-tools-release-close-launch-dyce-95165/

There are numerous links and a brief search will reveal this.

http://www.vg247.com/2011/07/07/creation-kit-release-to-come-at-least-very-close-to-skyrim-launch-says-howard/

My point is, if they decided not to release the CK, there is nothing you, I or anybody else could do about it because the 'game' was sold 'as is', with no mention of 'Including the Creation Kit'. Therefore you are not purchasing the game with the Creation Kit. You are purchasing the game only, regardless of what has been said prior to release.

Many companies say things about a product prior to releasing the product. Sometimes their hopes and aspirations for the product never fully materialise, but they are under no obligation to supply the thing that they were hoping to, and unable to, include.

So, the fact remains that we did not buy the Creation Kit, it was given freely.

I would like to add in my two cents that this correct.

While the company said it would be released alongside/close-to the game, legally it's not part of the game, and therefor not required, they don't have to give it out, and they are not at fault.

I'm getting kind of sick of this 'Bethesda svcks' mentality over such trivial things. If you hate them and think they screw modders over, stop modding. There are plenty of us that enjoy it and think it's a great thing. Bethesda releases an inhouse developement product and does their best to make it functional for us. Do they fix everything? No. Do they make the entire process effortless and flawless? No. It's a game developement tool. Game developement is a complicated and tricky process. Do we overall as a community appreciate them and encourage them to continue this tradition? Not really.


If I had a buggy program that I had to fix, I would be FAR more willing to do it if everyone it was for was showering me with thanks and praise, versus them all complaining about the 'poor' state that the program was in.

I think you guys will find that if we put a lot more in, we will get a lot more out.

+1

The CK is nice to have, but they are not, nor were they ever, under any obligation to release it as part of the game. Todd's marketing rhetoric about what he wanted to see happen doesn't count either.