I want to clarify right off the bat that this is not a flame or a rant about how crap CK is. It's just a record of my impression of the past month, and the reasons behind it. I also want to make it clear that I'm grateful to Bethesda. Ever since Morrowind where someone told you me could download "keyring" addon I've been a mod addict. Some of my fondest and best gaming memories come from Elder Scrolls and Fallout, and specifically, modded versions of those games. It can't be easy spending months on a complex and detailed world, then releasing it to the public and allowing them to change it, and what does the public do? slap on a big pair of [censored] and give it the sword from Final Fantasy VII. Suffice to say I have been a passive participant in this community for a long time. Enjoying the mods people made, and allowing them to enrich my experiences.

From the very first moment Skyrim was announced, and I saw those screenshots, I knew I wanted to be more than a passive observer this time. I wanted to add to that world, I wanted to tell stories and generate content, to give other players the enjoyment I'd have over the years from the modding community. Who remembers Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul? Or Martigen's wonderful creature mods, Textures, Weapons and Armor Oh my!

Release day came and I bought Skyrim within minutes online. Before the end of December I had 380 hours of play under my belt. I loved this game more than I thought I would. That had never happened before, I was taken aback, should I ask it to go steady? maybe just buy it some RAM? But that only made me hungrier for CK and I began to plan the mods and quests I wanted to make...

The day came, I snapped up the creation kit and began to do the tutorials. When the video tuts were released I did them too. and the gods of level design looked down and declared that lo it was good. Anyone who ever played with lego as a kid will agree that learning the kits and snapping them together is a very satisfying process. Suffice to say that in a month, I'm quite savvy with the level design aspect. Using mostly hot keys and shortcuts and putting things together in minutes that initially took me hours. I dabbled as a graphic designer and animator in my youth, so I figured I was well prepared with a background in Photoshop and 3ds Max for re-texturing and and new meshes. (to be honest I have not tried that yet)

But then I got to the meat of the game. The Quests, Oh the stories I had to tell! I was excited at the prospect of introducing a new noble family to Skyrim. To give them a dark history full of misfortune and intrigue. and to weave the Dragonborn into that web with promises of treasure and moral choices.

But from the get go, I could not make anything work. The moment I came up against the slightest piece of logic, or minor script I screeched to a halt and opened the wiki to find it vague and sparse and suddenly I could not find the path to tell my stories. If I wanted to do anything more complex than a fetch quest or dungeon bash, if I wanted to tell a proper story I was going to have to ask for help. Now if you recognize my user name, it's probably because I've been bleating for help almost non stop this month. And to this forum's wonderful credit, I have not been flamed, banned abused or mocked, People have patiently helped, when they were unsure they offered their best guess. Were it not for this forum I would have quit long long ago and for that you have my profound and eternal thanks.

But this is the part I want to talk about. The thing I want to get across (mostly to Bethesda) CK does not feel like a finished program, it feels like a jury rigged dev tool (which is what it is I know, but hang on the point is coming) I'll give you an example in level design. Its useful to be be able to hide things to they don't get in the way while you work on other aspects. But The selection process is dodgy, and seriously, we NEED the ability to invert a selection, so I don't have to select 300 objects to hide so I can work on 30 others. and do I really have to work with textures on all the time? And the gizmo's oh as a max user how I rejoiced when I saw the gizmos. but they're unintuitive and buggy as hell. fine degree of control is not actually their strong point, particularly rotation. If you incorporate a feature, it should be release ready. That's all I'm saying.

What I've mentioned so far is not really the problem. I turned the air blue with profanity, but I got them to work, bent them to my will and created my levels. My problem lies with Papyrus and the Quest design system. Not so much their functionality, well some of it, but mostly it's a case of documentation. The wiki is vague at best and downright lacking at worst. The word wiki does not mean you don't have to adequately document all your functions, packages and terms but rather wait for some long suffering user to do it. It means you create a database that people will learn from and as a result add to. (I have the most horrible feeling one of you is going to post the actual meaning of wiki, but you know what I meant)

For every roadblock I hit, My procedure was this, Head to creation kit wiki, search term, no luck, head to nexus, search term, no luck. head to bethforums, search term, no luck. *sigh* head to YouTube, search term, wade through hundreds of vids that have no bearing on my question. then finally going to post in the aforementioned forums.

So now I need to wait for some kind soul to help. I move on to the next bit, and hit another issue aaannnd repeat. In a month, where spent all my free time with this, I have learned very very little. The concepts and logic behind quests still often eludes me and scripts that work in one esp that fail to work in another confound me. I've managed not to ragequit yet but only just. The thing is, I'm a fairly persistent bastard. and I'm sure there are other people like me with great content and stories to tell, but gave up because the technicalities involved are not adequately documented or explained.

I found myself asking "Is this really the tool you guys used to design the game? Seriously? it cant be identical because things like the navmesh bug exist. so I'm curious about the difference between your CK and ours. If it is the same tool, that goes a long way to explaining some of the bugs in Skyrim's initial release.

So Bethesda in conclusion I'm not asking you to simplify the program or make it less versatile. I'm just asking that you explain it better. more tutorials, more examples more vids and finally, some polish on the features you've incorporated, I read a statement somewhere that one of your marketing guys said you were gearing up to support Skyrim and CK for the next couple of years. If this is true it's great news but only if you continue to improve and refine not just the program, but the learning curve for it.

I'll say it again, this was not an angry post, just my thoughts and feelings towards a game, it's developer and it's community that I want to be a bigger part of.

I've seen this skepticism elsewhere, and I wanted to say - yeah, it really is the same tool. Honest!

We have a lot of the same concerns and workflow frustrations commented upon in the community, and even as I type this we are working on editor improvements that will help all of us in future versions of the Creation Kit. There are other pieces of software used within the studio, of course, and some of those are not publicly available. Our version control system, for example, is why the navmesh bug was never known to us until recently. There are also aspects of the game, such as animation, which are worked on outside of the editor in tools that we have no rights to distribute.

As a level designer, however - and this will be my seventh year at Bethesda - the Creation Kit, in one form or another, is the tool I have used every day. The only difference between your version and mine: my help option points to an internal version of the (same) wiki you have, my version is connected to our version control system, and the upload to Steam options are disabled. That's really it.

^ 10000000000000000+.

Bethesda you must read this.

Edit: Nvm I guess you did.

I think I'll be linking to this post a lot. Thanks for it.

I would like to throw my own input in here... Although I have been through countless bugs and even more issues with saving/updating my mods, I still embrace the fact that the CK was even released. You did not HAVE to do this for us, yet you guys at Bethesda choose to. You enjoy seeing the content we make, and we love building upon such an amazing game. However, there will never be the case where you are able to satisfy the entire audience, nor do I expect any one of you at Bethesda to think so.

The amount of freedom you give us with the CK is absolutely amazing. Despite us being completely in the dark from the beginning as to the new features, many of it is easy to pick up on. You guys truly have turned the interfaces into a very user friendly environment.

I do not like most of the issues I have encountered so far, but I learn to deal with it, as I remember that this is a gift to the community, not a right. Although the main issue is getting used to the new way scripts are handled... outside the ESP/BSA. Biggest issue for me personally, is that scripts do not seem to update/remove when the script is changed later on, nor can I get a change on a new save.

I have not had a chance to do much of the quest development as I am still getting used to the new interface/workings, but I should be in the game shortly enough.

I would also like to address the amount of negative feedback that is being given towards the CK. I am sure many of you at Bethesda have seen all the ranting generated due to frustration and lack of resources as to how to get the CK to work... however, this just goes to show you the results of Skyrim's success, as well as the fan base. The users of the CK only wish for something stabler and some sort of addressing to many of the numerous errors and bugs we have encountered. A few users have even gone through the trouble to leave you guys with a nice compiled thread of everything they found. Sadly I don't think I have found a reply to any of those threads to date from Bethesda addressing any of the issues. I am aware you guys are busy with the new DLC that was mentioned, but is there not someone specifically hired to solely moderate the forums? That would be nice.

Thanks for the experience,
~Sev

Joel,

Thanks for your input on this. I can't stress how much it helps the community knowing that someone there is hearing what we say. As for what the OP said I couldn't agree more. I feel that the number one thing Bethesda can do to help the community is get the group (or person) that worked on developing Papyrus and have them develop and provide better documentation, tutorials, and provide examples on the wiki for us. We really appreciate the new scripting system and all of the additional features and functionality that come with it but it's such a major part of the game that without a reasonable understanding of it's many aspects the majority of the community will never be able to achieve it's potential.

@Joel, as above thank you so much for your post, I cannot tell you how much it means that you guys are listening, and developments are in the works, that does much to fuel my ambition to keep working.
@Skullz, I agree with most of your points, but freedom is only useful if you know how to use it. I want to stress that I didn't write this to Bash CK or Bethesda, Only to stress my concerns over certain aspects. As you say, CK is a gift, and there is no obligation, it's a very good point to keep in mind. Joel's post makes me hope that both the wiki and the ck will improve greatly in the months to come.

Tyrisbel, I completely understand your frustration. As JoelBurgess already responded this is the tool the designers at Bethesda use. And as game production tools go, its a very, VERY nice one. Its easy from our perspective outside Bethesda to be critical of the quality of the CK. When I look around at other dev tools I have access too (like UDK, Unity or others), the CK is kinda buggy. But keep in mind the following facts:

• Skyrim is a very sophisticated game. There is a lot more going on than just drawing art on the screen. Making such a powerful storytelling system data-driven so that it can be modified without rewriting the code adds yet another layer of complexity on top of an already difficult project.
  
• While I agree that the wiki is less than helpful in a lot of ways, at least we have SOMETHING. Imagine how much pain we'd be in if Bethesda released the CK with no documentation at all. On the other hand, I am glad they released the CK when they did rather than delaying further in order to make sure the wiki was complete and correct.
  
• Game development is R&D. Always. Unless you're copying minesweeper or something, you're flying by the seat of your pants the whole time. I'm sure even the internal wiki at Bethesda is riddled with errors and outdated information or features that never quite got implemented.
  
• Bugs are inevitable. If it wasn't the navmesh bug, it would have been something else. Removing all the bugs is simply impossible, and missing a bug that only occurs when you use a different workflow that Bethesda uses (as with the navmesh bug that only effects .esp files) is absolutely forgivable. Bugs will be fixed in time and more will be found. Be glad that Bethesda is willing to continue to make updates.

One last note, Bethesda doesn't have to release their dev tools. No one is making them do it. Very few studios do release their tools. Consider for a moment that at least part of the reason why most studios do not release their dev tools is because they are either commercial third-party products (like 3DS MAX or UDK) or they are unstable or difficult to use internal tools.

So yes, Bethesda please continue to improve the CK by listening to and responding to the mod community. Everyone else, please try to be patient and trust that Bethesda is doing their best to help us make awesome mods, and help each other. If you have a problem or get stuck, post it here and ask for help. That's what this forum is here for.

Perhaps you took my meaning the wrong way... I was merely stating that we had no clue how to use the CK at the time of the release, with so much new content and the new tools, we were not provided with the proper/complete documentation for many of the features we would use.

Quite the contrary, I am not bashing the CK or Bethesda either - In fact, it is my life's goal to actually work for Bethesda; I would certainly not bash my favorite company.

As well, I would like to point out I was merely adding to your post. I completely agree with you.

Thanks for the clarification

However do remember that your CK also has surplus, deprecated toolbar buttons left over from the CS/GECK that are removed for tidiness in our versions. You can't go fooling me in your video tutorials

I do wonder however how you guys managed with things such as options not saving or re-setting themselves on exit. For example this happens with the "activator" box in the primitives options, it's broken for us, the only way to get it to work is to duplicate one from the Skyrim ESM. Just curious as to if you had those type of issues too and how you got round them.

Yes, I too was a little disappointed when I first started the Kit and determined that it was not very much different than the CS. I played around with the Cryengine before and thus expected at least things like WASD-navigation or even in-editor-playtesting. But the engines surely are different as can be, and the Crytek thing doesn't have that streaming-technology which allows giant worldspaces without loadscreens, in particular when the 64x64 cell restriction gets fixed.

Hey, I just read Joel's comment. So, version control, is it? Well I stumbled over that earlier today and indeed this seems to be the source of many problems. But I think that comment was something we all were waiting for, so thanks.

Thank you, Joel. Having someone from Bethesda stop in once in awhile to let us know you've not forgotten us tends to soothe our savage beast (at least for awhile).

As for the wki(s), I think a big part of the responsibility lies with all of us modders to share what we have learned and not just bury our heads in working on our mods. Even if our tips are small and seem to us inconsequential, they may make a huge difference for someone who is stuck. Let's all try to take a little time to be part of the solution.
In time the tutorials will become more comprehensive and detailed in the nuances of the CK and everyone will have an easier time ... but it will take time for all that information to work its way onto the internet.

Much thanks to the OP as I was about to post something similar. Been enjoying mods since Morrowind and really looked forward to giving back to the community in Skyrim. I'm a software developer so I don't have problems with many of the concepts, I'm just learning the ins and outs of the CK.


I don't think that's accurate. If you watch the second video in the amazing Tutorial series, Just Schram is doing layout with another tool: "The Elder Scrolls Construction Set *** EDITOR UPDATE AVAILABLE ***" The UI does seem very close but there are one or two extra buttons on the toolbar. As an outsider with my face pushed up to the glass it makes me think the technology behind that tool is better than what I've been given.

I don't want to seem ungrateful because it's amazing what Bethesda has provided above and beyond their immensely enjoyable game. And working with CK has given me a better appreciation for what has gone into Skyrim. What I'm asking for is some more transparency.

I'm sure Marketing-type people want to save face and put only the shiny, best foor forward, but every tool has it's quirks. Surely there's some sort of known-bug list maintained internally. Can the community see that list? Further, can we see some of the internal work-arounds? Given that I'm sure the community would rally and help move things forward.

There are literally hundreds of highly talented people out there willing to devote many, many hours for nothing more than the appreciation of their fellow gamers. Please let us!

This. That way users won't get pissed upon stumbling upon a bug that restricts further development. This way we can see what exactly is wrong, and what we need to wait for fixes for. I would very exceptionally happy with something like this.

The title change is just something I'm guessing happened because the name "Creation Kit" was coined later on in development. Also *** EDITOR UPDATE AVAILABLE *** shows if you accidentally enable version control in the INI.

And the extra buttons are all deprecated buttons that no longer work. Things like Show/Hide Leaves (as SpeedTree is no longer used), Scripts (as Papyrus is now used), the Show to Grid button from the GECK that has never actually worked. My guess is they were just removed in order to tidy up the interface a bit, it's quite cluttered as it is and having 5 or so useless buttons wouldn't help.

About the differences you can see in the video tutorials - the one on the far left is the version control button. The others are deprecated features that hadn't actually worked for some time. Cleaning up stuff like that was part of the prep work we did between the launch of the game and launch of the Creation Kit. The ***EDITOR UPDATE AVAILABLE*** text is also part of our version control system which lets the designer know a new build of the game and/or editor is up.

Actually, the fact that we're using the dev version of the Creation Kit in those tutorials should serve as testimony that it's really the same tool.

The title Elder Scrolls Construction Set, feels a little more close to home than "Creation Kit". Just me though..

As for the wiki documentation. I have an account, and already started trying to "make a difference". It's not hard. Just make an account and get to work .

That is an excellent point. I will re evaluate the CK wiki, to see if there's anything I can contribute

To those who don't believe the CK is the same tool the development team uses, as those from Bethesda have repeatedly confirmed, consider this: This is the difference between using a tool for the first time (No-one in the modding community has been using this for YEARS) and having used it every day for years. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about...when I first start using any new tool, It's always a struggle to do anything, but once you get used to it (and it takes more than a month or two for something as complex as the CK) and you persist in trying to master it, your later efforts will be much better than your early attempts.

The Bethesda designers are professionals...they do this for a LIVING. Coolest job in the world I bet. (Though I have noticed the occasional error that slipped through their QA team (Cough...bridge in Blackreach is invisible from underneath...Cough!) but they have a definite advantage over the average modder using the tools for the first time.

I'm sure even they would like some of the improvements we've asked for (grouping items together semipermanmently to move whole rooms without accidentally dropping anything along the way, fore example)

Thanks Joel! That's an excellent point. Though I admit the cynical part of my brain figured Justin was using the a CK runtime he knew didn't have issues with level design.

Back to my original point though. Skyrim is an amazing game authored with some flavor of the CK tool. Some people are getting frustrated trying to do what the game already does beautifully. None of us have your seven years of working with its evolution. And it's very difficult to know if issues come from CK, the engine, or modder ignorance. Is there some extra resource Bethesda would be willing share that can help us catch up?

From an SDLC stand-point, that would be letting the community look at CK's bug-list and existing work-arounds. Doubt that would ever happen but figured I'd start by reaching for a star then see if there was something in our galaxy. The wiki may be the answer so I'd best sign up and get busy.

Though to be honest the best solution is for you to telecommute from my house for a week I'm sure I'd pick up everything I need to know about authoring.

While we have your attention, could you answer a couple of things we've been having trouble with?

I, for one, would like to know how to access local axis rotations on an object via scripts, in case I want to rotate an object that isn't on a strict N/S/E/W orientation accurately.

Oh, and a method of renaming objects and NPCs via scripting would be nice too...so names could change dynaically in appropriate circumstances (randomized names for bandit Bosses, for example - Thfgar the Headchopper sounds better than the default titles)

This boosted my respect for Bethesda even more. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I actually think the papyrus documentation on the wiki is good, thing is if its your first exposure to object orientated programing you will still find it tough to learn as it requires a different approach. As someone who is used to oop I think its great just wish I had more time to spend modding.

The navmesh and vanishing dungeon sections need addressing though.

Actually, it's not strict OOP...there are some eccentricities...you have to keep the code running on an object or you lose your properties and variables..they all revert to default values, including references (They used to be called Pointers way back when I was learning OOP (It was a new concept back then...I learned how to program in FORTRAN and Pascal.)

Very cool posts JoelBurgess, thank you.

Can you comment on which levels you made? Or perhaps the workflow around how they are made? I'm curious as to whether one guy builds a dungeon from a-z or is one guy the clutter guy, who goes into his coworkers dungeons and clutters them, while someone else comes in and links items to quests and such. Must be a cool job, man.