I was talking to a friend recently regarding RPG's, and I am of the TES persuasion, and he is of the everything else persuasion. (mass effect, dragon age, dark souls etc).

His argument was this, while I played Skyrim, he pointed out everything about the game that other games do just as well if not better. His remark was "the only thing TES games excel at beyond other games is this huge hand crafted world. Other features are the same."

But then I thought..isn't that the point? TES players don't love the games because of mechanics, or shiny graphics, or awesome hardware reqs.

We love TES games because it is TES. Dark Elves, Redguards, Nords and Argonians. Dwemer, Daedric, Glass and Steel. Dwemer ruins, bandit forts, caves and daedric shrines. Skeletons, rats, Durzogs and Zombies.

THIS is why we play TES. Not because it's the best RPG, not because it's the GOTY, and not because of how many pixels it has.

But because it's the world of Nirn, Tamriel, and that's home to us. And any chance we get to spend time in this amazing lore filled world, we WILL be there.

Anyone else agree?

I love it for its world the depth of the universe the open worlds in these games I've dreamed of in a game since I was a young child. I love the lore and the joy of roleplaying my character set within this world. The Elder Scrolls stacks far above any game on the market, that is why sometimes I am critical of this series because its the best game series out there, and I hold it in very high esteem.

Yes but if they keep dumbing it down it won't be enjoyable anymore.

I still think TESIII was the huge grand canyon leap forward, TESIV was a bunny hop backwards and... well, I still like TESV more than DA or Fable or any other console RPG.

YES! I couldn't have said it better myself! It's the Lore, it's the HUGE open world, it's the silly guards that never change (LOL), it's the way we can be anything we want to be, without restrictions or skill points, where we can level up archery by using a bow, sneak by sneaking etc etc etc! There isn't any other OPEN world game like TES games. I've played Dragon Age and it's a good game, but OMG it is SO not TES! There is no comparison.

I've played huge world MMO's, like Rift, but it still isn't TES! There is nothing like it out there and that's why we patiently wait for five years until the next installment comes out. Plus, TES games have a HUGE modding community, which adds another amazing aspect to these games, they will never grow old or boring on PC!

You might be right, but then I could say, "That hand-crafted world could do well to have the gameplay systems of games X, Y, and Z. Imagine how awesome it would be then!" And I think that's what people are getting at.

This is a great game with a beautiful and detailed world, but it lacks some of the features that other games use to grab and hold onto players. There's a reason Skyrim isn't the only good game out there; I've enjoyed other games that don't have as much detail in their environments or don't have the rich history that Skyrim does, but they offer something else--usually in the form of engaging gameplay mechanics. So to say that a beautiful world with great lore is the only reason I play Skyrim, as a TES fan, is a shaky argument. It's a reason, yes, but not the sole reason.

In the end, I wish we could take what Skyrim does great, what other games do great, and put them together to make a really fantastic game. Instead, it's like piecemeal: I play Skyrim for this, but not that; I play TOR for this, but not that; I play Total War for this, but not that.

I'd play just one if it had everything.

They didn't dumb the series down at all. They removed the pointless garbage. I have been able to RP in Skyrim better than ANY TES game besides MW. MW and Skyrim are both equally great in very different ways.

But that's not the point of my argument at all, it's the exact opposite. TES games aren't about mechanics that can be absurdly complicated or dumbed down. It's about what makes TES, well, TES. Races, places, the lore, the familiar sounds and smells as it were.

For me, it is just like... I was wandering around randomly in the area around Brood Cavern/Dead Man's Respite last time I played... It was night, and the big moon was in its new phase... A river runs down the slope, fog gathers and falls, maybe there is a mudcrab or a deer in the distance... it just feels like somewhere, you know? Just an emotional kick, that I don't think you will find much place else.

TES games are the only games where you can find deep, philosophical discussions about the lore on the forums. Oblivion for example is the only game that made me join an Oblivion forum RP group and we created characters and wrote about them as a group for over a year. TES games will influence you like no other game, because they have an immense depth to them.

This is my first TES game, and I will say that the backstory that is created for the world is very good, but what Skyrim fails at is integrating it into gameplay. It hints at great stories behind things like the Companions, or the Draugar but it is never explained or pursued in anyway by the quest giving npcs. Anything truly interesting in this game is sadly contained in a book, and while there is a ton of good writing there, the only ones that I do pick up and read while dungeon crawling are those marked journal, diary, etc. out of the hope that they will give context to my actions. Sadly they are few and far between, but welcome when they appear!

That is a major flaw of Skyrim to me, is that yes there is all this rather amazing backstory, but it doesn't effect or color what I am doing in the slightest. For example, an obvious and cheap example is that of the Civil war questline. It is the same for both factions, with neither adopting differing tactics that would suit them, and as well they don't have any true consequence upon the cities they conquer. A great chance to have gameplay and story be integrated, but they failed.

You could have also made the argument of how TES adds spellcrafting where those other games don't - OH WAIT!...

You're opinion.

I disagree, and I'm not going to convince you and you can't convince me.

It's Todd Howard! (?)

You are absolutely right. And what I can say more is that you grow in the lore. Example I started to play with Morrowind, I liked it lot, but there was several things about the lore I wanted to change. When I played Oblivion I liked it really much but there was still a few things I wanted to change about the lore. Now with Skyrim I love it and there's nothing I want to change about the lore. Only thing which makes me sad is that the huge hand crafted world is not in newer games as huge as it was in Daggerfall.

good thread i would agree BIG TIME that its the world that makes tes.its also the amount of game hours and replayable value you get.i think skyrim is great.yes its different from others,,,but so it SHOULD be...its a different part of tamieral so that means a new take on everything or else .........it wouldnt feel different

Well... you could put it that way i suppose...

Very good topic, Master Chief. I definitely agree with your point.

I was introduced to the Elder Scrolls properly via Morrowind. The first time I stepped out of the store and looked up at the sky; the stars were just beginning to emerge and I stared for a good couple of minutes with that calm theme music in the background. The ability to walk and swim around (and later, levitate) and admire the scenery won me over to TES.

I love BG and Dragon Age but they're different kinds of games with the shared goal of getting you involved in their respective worlds. TES doesn't have the romances and NPCs of other games. I can wish for them but I am more than happy to accept what I now have. It's not, as you said, about the best - just admiring what is good in whatever you like. Putting down one game for another is liking putting down maples for not being elms; they're both great in their own right.

I tend to agree with your friend mostly. Your friend acknowledges that TES has a very strong open world, but falls short in the other departments. Other games are fairly linear and short lived, but have great mechanics behind them. To simply defend TES because it has a strong open world is silly. It can have both easily. The fact that it does not, but rather has declined in this department over the years is not a positive. Mass Effect (particularly ME1) is far more engaging as far as story goes and how itemization and progression is handled. Way, way, way more successful. The only problem is the fact that it is fairly linear. Your friend has a very valid point. I do not really care about the graphics, yet Skyrim particularly chose to focus on this rather than the core gameplay OR side stories, that you and I both cherish. The Guild System is a shadow of what it was in other TES games and Dialogue is extremely dissatisfying from the point of view that you should be able to make impactful Dialog options and NPCs respond to your Persona that you have built rather than seem to be soulless husks.

TES is the only reason why I joined these forums and I will probably never join any other forum, I can relate to you on that. I would have probably joined sooner but I did not know about these forums. I lurked for maybe one and half to two years before I actually joined.

I could sit here and write for days why I love TES but the main reason is it's a world you can get lost in. The world is believable and that's is what makes it so compelling. The history, the lore, it what make TES, TES. That's the main reason I play.

Go read the Halo lore forums. The Halo fan boys (Why is fan boy bleeped?) religious devotion to the game is insane.

The lore forums here are so scholarly it's like a university as opposed to a cult (ala Halo)

"You and me. We're the only people around who aren't complete fools."

what was remove was some of the most fun iv ever had (acorbatics/spellmaking/all that good stuff, far form pointless but i digress) butim still here because it is TES

It is wierd because your friend is basically admitting that Skyrim is superior to the games he prefers. Skyrim is a game that at least rivals every other RPG out there in every other category then destroys the competition in world-creation and sheer quantity.