Learning a new one from practice is perfectly logical. I have nothing against people spending the perks they get when they level up - I just don't see the practice of recycling perks as being anything short of laughably absurd. Perhaps I missed part of your argument.

It may be unrealistic, though I don't feel that should present a problem in a game that is steeped in fantasy. But the recycling perks aspect aside, what is wrong with a system that would allow unused skills to lapse, therefore remitting perks in which the requirements were no longer met, and allowing new perks to be learned based on the mechanic that as humans (or Argonians, Khajit, etc) we have the ability to learn new things? That's not to say have a book that magically resets all your abilities, just have a system to change your character based on his experiences.

So in summary, you would still work towards any changes, but you would be a real, dynamic, ever changing being. That's one of the most real aspects of being human after all, our ability to change.


To be fair, I think I did prescribe to the whole 'vendor' idea in my original post, and while I now think a dynamic system for character change would be better, I still feel an imperfect fix is better than nothing.

There are no vendors that will reset your perk tree, however, there are console commands that will allow you to do this. Might take awhile though.

That is true, however they only work for the PC version.

Because here's the thing. I can learn how to fish, for sure. It will take a certain amount of time. I can also learn how to hunt, and that also will take an amount of time. I can learn to fish and learn to hunt, but I will have to expend time to learn each. What I cannot do it learn to fish, decide "fishing is for svckers" and then decide I no longer know how to fish and count the time I spent learning it toward hunting instead.

Perk points represent time. You practice and use a skill over and over, and when you level up you can take certain perks in it, and the perk point represents the time you spent on that skill. So once spent, it makes no sense at all to be able to say "Oh, really I want this perk, so I'm gonna take it without spending any time/perk point on it." Time spent is gone, and you can't change what the time was spent on. If you spend time learning to fish, that time is gone, whether it was time well spent or not.

I'm not saying to count that time towards the time for another skill. I'm saying count the time you spent training a skill towards the perk you want in that same tree. You already did the work, you leveled the skill.


I disagree. Skill points represent time. Perk points are more like realizations that are reached by being so good at something. If you put in the work to train a skill, you spent your time. Short of making every perk obtainable, which is, yes, unrealistic, having a way to change your perks would be acceptable. When you learn a perk, it's instant. You put no time into it. It was a single decision you made in the skills screen, that may have taken only seconds.

My biggest problem with starting a new game is not relearning the skills and perks. Its everything else. Everything that had nothing to do with that process. The quests, the foraging for equipment and ingredients, the talking to the same people and repeating the same dialogue that I just did a couple weeks ago. The monotonous tasks that aren't relevant to my character's abilities.

thatdude-

i absolutely agree with your last paragraph. with the lack of depth and meaning in this game, imo, THAT is the exact problem. especially, after doing it 5,10,15 times.

doing same quests and dungeons, etc. with a different roleplay mindset can only take you so far.

now, if choices were available and meaningful game differences were demonstrated then i'd have no problem with it.

edit- i still find it a very interesting fact that in morrowind/oblivion i never felt the need to roleplay to enjoy the game, but, if i don't roleplay in skyrim the game seems to just get mundane very quickly. ??

I don't see how the idea of respeccing is so unfeasible. Just throw in a mage who has a spell/potion allowing you to reallocate perks. What am I missing? Is there something in the lore that says magic can't be used to alter peoples skills?

I don't see why it is absurd. A bear claws at me in real life and in the game. In real life if someone teaches me a bad slow or useless way of doing something I can be re-taught to do it a more productive way.

Perks represent time too, because you have to level skills to meet prerequisites to get the perks. Either way, it's an ability you learned over time via practice. Granted, you didn't have to make the decision immediately or even beforehand, but it's still an ability that represents the amount of time you had spent practicing. Being able to reallocate that is just not at all relatable to how people learn things.


That I fully understand and sympathize with - which is why I'm not trying to do everything in one or even two playthroughs. My current character is a Viking-ish Nord Warrior, heavy armor, one-handed, block and smithing. My next character will be some sort of warrior-necromancer (Death Knight, I believe some have called it) that uses one-handed, heavy armor, necromancy, destruction (fire) and smithing+enchanting...and wearing Daedric armor as soon as possible so he looks like Sauron's nephew who joined the family business. But regardless of what the character is, he'll be doing completely different quests.

My current character is doing the Companions quests, and some assorted others like Markarth (Forsworn) and this and that, and of course the Main Quest. Not sure what else, but no Dark Brotherhood, Thieves' Guild, Daedric quests or Civil War. The next character will be doing the Daedric quests, anything related to Necromancy, possibly the Dark Brotherhood, who knows, but there will be little overlap.

But that would be unfair to people who wanted to make their own Steel Plate armour, and had to take the Glass Armour perk and never use it! It's a wasted perk...

I don't think I've ever seen a game which has character advancement and skill/ability choices where people haven't asked to be able to undo their choices at some point.

Beth games involve consequences...you make a choice now, and find out that it's cruddy, or really not much use later on...you end up stuck with it. That's life, that's Beth, that's Skyrim.

Again, that means that all you have to do is say "it's magic" and anything makes sense. That's a lazy abuse of the term "magic".

If there was a possibility of respec, which imo there shouldn't as it'd remove what little consequence the game offers and cheapens the whole skill/perk system even more, it should come at a cost that would actually make one think of the usefulness of it in relation to the cost.

As I have said before, I find it very odd that there are people asking for things on the extreme ends of the spectrum. One set of people wants classes back so that it's written in stone what their character is before the game even really starts, while the other set doesn't even want their choices that they've already made are written in stone. The first group wants not only the past set but the future as well; the second wants to be able to control not only the future but the past as well.

There's a reason you were waiting for someone to bring that point up: it's the single valid point that always blows every "well, I just don't like it that other people might do this" argument all to hell. Do you spy on what your neighbors are doing with their food in their home and go lobbying for laws to be made against everybody being able to eat those things you don't like? Of course it's going to be brought up. It is after all the true end of a pointless and fairly rude sidetrack to the discussion of the merits of any suggestion that wouldn't impact you.

The real discussion is often disrupted by this kind of "you shouldn't be able to do this cause I think it's dumb/irrational/pointless/etc" garbage. The only real point I've seen made about it's potential implementation is the one about how you can get perks to craft, enchant, and make potions, stock up then get rid of them for something else. I think, I don't like, or I am against are irrelevant arguments. I could care less what you think about what I do in my game. I payed MY money for it, so if I want to do an Oghma Infinium loop to level up to 81 then start playing I will. And guess what? You're gaming experience will not diminish one damn bit because I could.

For that matter, why does it matter if someone wants to create a mod that allows them to fly planes while eating pasta and chasing dragons through the sky, gunning them down with their uzis? If someone feels the need to do so, they will. And you and I will both scratch our heads in bewilderment and not download it (well, I can't in any case on XBox, but I jump ahead of myself). The difference is I will say "Hey, not my thing but more power to you," whereas you seem to be trying to imply that knowing other people might be downloading it and using it will just positively ruin your gaming experience. Maybe that's not what you're saying, but that's the message sent by every argument like this.

What if someone were to argue back to you that it's unfair that a PC player can do all of these things, even getting every perk and a console player can't? That they want the same freedom, having paid the same money, to change their minds? I've restarted several times and enjoy doing so, but if someone doesn't like the idea of redoing hundreds of hours of work to try a particular different way, why not let them? Why do YOU care what THEY want to do on THEIR game machine? Is this an MMO where someone cheating can impact the game economy or discover that after doing it the easy way, they're bored and want to take their monthly subscription somewhere else? NO, it's not. Bethesda already has their money. If people using restoration potion loop make weapons that do 50,000 damage and kill anything in one shot even on master discover they are bored with the sudden hello kittyesque ease of the game thereafter and quit playing it, that is their problem and nobody else is affected. It's not like they can ask for their money back.

As for the suggestion, I see nothing wrong with it, though it's need is less driven than in say an MMO that by changing rules might invalidate builds. I don't think I would use it on any but my one leaped to level 81 character to continue exploring the play for variations on ways to spend the 66 perks and how they play. It's absence doesn't stop me as I saved without spending any of them and can hop back to that save to feel out the other ideas. As for a "reason" or world or lore consistent justification, I do see the desire to keep the game on lore as a valid concern. After all, too many changes that alter it away from the backbone of what distinguishes it as an "Elder Scrolls" game and it does begin to be fail in that respect.

I don't think it's anywhere near as difficult as you seem to though. Have you even read some of the creation stories in the lore? Read just one of the many and you'll see all "I expect things to be consistent with how it is here" arguments evaporate and blow away like fog in hot sun. Magic that effects the mind like Illusion more than provides the paradigm of manipulating memory. The god like powers of the aedra and daedra, the Elder Scrolls themselves, all provide more than ample room to come up with a universe and lore consistent explanation. Given all the things that are done to heroes or people in the vast number of books in game that are just as insanely out of touch with our world's norms, I have to say it's a loser's bet to say there is no possible way they could come up with a consistent explanation of how it could be done.

that is my point, however, having thought about it a bit more, i very much doubt beth could ever come up with a creative and appropriate system.

All of that is a pure gimmick in order to be able to game the system. It's just ridiculous to want to be able to undo the choices you've alread made in terms of what your character knows. Hell, maybe nothing should be set in stone about your character. Why can't I change my character's name? It won't affect your game! Why can't I change my character's race? Why can't my character have a flippin' six change? You should always be able to take every decision back at any time! Did you kill somebody, then find out they were the only merchant that could sell something specific? Why, it's ridiculous for that to be unalterable! There should be an "Oh hell I killed the wrong person please bring them back to life" potion for sale at another vendor!

It's not abuse of the term at all. The fact is, magic is present in Skyrim and magic can easily justify a respec spell/potion. Your problem with respeccing was that it is absurd and makes no sense - with magic it makes perfect sense.

They could even make it part of a quest where some necromancer is trying to play god and create "perfect" humans. You can chose to either stop the necromancer or help him retrieve a special artifact. If you help him retrieve the artifact then he is able to alter peoples talents in the form of a respec spell.

That's a fair statement. The idea of making an instant decision that has such a profound affect on a character doesn't sit well with me.




I like to do as much as possible in one playthrough. I'll probably make 5 different characters and do at least the main quest line with each so I can experience multiple styles, but I am a bit of a completionist, so its in my nature to want one character that I feel is perfect. It just feels like the game punishes this type of play style, and that is my main gripe.

As said many many many times before in the many previous threads that have been similar...

Won't happen.
Bethesda doesn't do, They've never changed any gameplay mechanic once the game has been released...and perks/leveling is a game mechanic.

Reroll.
You only have about 5+ years before TES VI so enjoy the time by trying something new with a new character in Skyrim.

What if not being able to respec is magic too?

That's some people for you, lol.

I remember way back in the Fallout 3 forums, people were complaining that they had taken perks which turned out cruddy and wanted to rechoose or reallocate the perk point...and that was in a game where you didn't have to choose specific earlier perks to get a later one in the same skill type. Skyrim is a bit more brutal in that respect, which is why I raised the point about there being some useless perks for some people in the skill trees.

Using my example, I really like the Steel Plate armour, and with my smithing and heavy armour skills and enchantments I have it at the 'heavy armour limit', which I think is around 567 effectiveness (although I could be wrong there). I had to take Elven Armour smithing to get it, and I'll never use Elven in a month of sundays. I'd like Dragon Armour for a tryout, but I don't want to waste a perk on Glass, which I will never use (I was wrong in my initial post...I should have said 'elven armour', not 'glass').

The problem with toting the whole 'reroll' idea as a fix for everything is that it defeats the purpose of playing a game. I play a game to have fun, and I assume that's why most other people do too. I know a lot less of us would do so if the point of a game was to do work. While rerolling is fine for some people, and even enhances their opinion of the game, some of us do not like it. What is fun for me is making a character and watching it grow, not building it till it hits a wall and starting all over. And once a game ceases being fun, it is no longer a game.

Tell me this - is there anything that can't be justifiable with the "it's magic" answer?

I agree completely, which is why I say don't reproduce what you did with the last character. There are a zillion things to do in Skyrim - don't do the same quests second time around.