One of the the things I like about the different wording and assumptions Beth gave to the NPCs is the "wiggle room" it gives each of us, the player character, in creating our backgrounds.

Ralof: ...going toward Darkwater, ...just outside Darkwater, assuming that you were crossing the border when he's talking to you in the cart.

Hadvar: assumes my Breton was fleeing from some court intrigue in High Rock.

Truth is my character wasn't crossing the border or fleeing from some court intrigue. He was tracking down the bastard Thalmor that had murdered his parents in one of their "cleansing" raids on a small village where Talos was still worshipped. I was thinking murderous thoughts and not paying attention when I was ambushed!

Cheers to all, great discussion!

Bram

It could go either way. That was my point.

Now it sounds like you are making things up.

How are you knocked out without knowing where you were before? The way you put it makes it seem like you magically appeared at the ambush and were immediately knocked out. I duno about you, but I think I would have rememberd if I were around people before being captured.


If the player were with the stormcloaks before being captured, why does Rolaf not mention any of this? Nothing indicates you were with them while talking with him.

Plus lets look at the games iterations. You cant even get near a stormcloak camp without being told to back off or else attacked. Why the hell would you be allowed near Ulfric? If they were trying to blend in, why the stormcloak armor?

I would personally put more weight on Player-NPC interactions rather then NPC-NPC interactions simply because I believe the writers would have put more emphasis on the information gained in dialogue. Really, when do you ever learn any important information outside of a player involved dialogue?

One moment, Rolaf says "on their way" and the other, he says "outside of". Which was it, we may never know, but I would put weight on "On their way" simply because I, as the player was delving into conversation and seeking information. NPCs talking are not going to have some in depth discussion about anything important, so I wouldn't put much weight on what they say as far as being factually accurate

That's just my opinion.

Anyitme someone loses consciousness a certain degree of amnesia sets in. It has to do with all events that took place right before the loss of consciousness not being transferred into your long term memory and is just lost from your short term memory. This is why it's common for people to wake up in hospital rooms after having been in an automobile collision not knowing how they got there. The last thing they remember was texting a friend.

this, it doesn't matter what you did (or even if your complectly Innocent) you were caught maybe chasing a horse thief (maybe he stole your horse), maybe close enough to a storm cloak camp to get caught up in that battle, either way that [censored]y captain really wants you dead

When the Captain said "Forget the list! He goes to the block" my character decided right then that if he somehow got out of there alive he'd hunt her down send her soul to oblivion. How fortunate that when he followed Ralof (wouldn't have anything to do with imperials at that point) she showed up in the keep. Oh, did she die; burned her face right off!

Now my character is on a campaign to wipe out as many Thalmor and Imperials as he can without them being any the wiser!

My read on the whole starting situation still is that the PC and the horse thief were random passers-by who just happened to be at the scene of the battle where Ulfric got caught. All the "crossing the border" business was just a poor excuse to get the thief and the PC to the block; they might not have been even near the border. The Imperials wanted to silence these two poor bastards so that they could pass on their own propaganda version of Ulfric's death to the people of Skyrim, with no random eyewitnesses around telling alternative (and more truthful) versions.

I intended to sig the following once but couldn't get it short enough. Se here goes. It's even partly on-topic!

Why being an Imperial is a possibility in Skyrim?

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  1. The only provable jerk at the execution scene was the lady Captain who told you to go to the block even when your name wasn't on the list.
  
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  2. Yes, Tullius didn't stop her, but senior officers (IRL) tend not to correct even a poor order they hear, just to evaluate the one who gave it.
  
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  3. They got Ulfric and a chance to end the rebellion, so perhaps they decided to kill every outsider involved, be it an unknown PC or a horse thief.
  
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  4. This because they possibly wanted to publish their own version of Ulfric's death, with no unknown, untrusted eye-witnessers interfering.
  
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  5. This plan might not have been the one for traditional Imperial values, but it might've been a "just-this-once-for-a-greater-good" reasoning. Or maybe Imperials just lost their Septim era values somewhere back in time anyway - The Septims have been gone for a long time already.
  
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  -> 6. An Imperial-minded character could be able to reason these out, or just blame the lady Captain about everything and still join the Legion. (S)he might also "know" that the Empire normally isn't this savage, if (s)he e.g. is an Imperial or you otherwise roleplay the char that way!

I personally like my version regarding the skooma, but that's just another backstory and kind of explains how my character turned into such a bad person.

I tend to agree that the Imperials just wanted to silence the two witnesses who could give alternate and probably more truthful versions about the capture of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. While the Imperial Captain gave the order, Tullius is a war criminal for standing by and watching two who were not on their wanted list be executed without due process under Imperial Law. They do still have laws, and that's what the Empire is supposed to be about. The commanding officer present is always responsible even though in practice (IRL) they usually don't overrule their subordinates -- only when their army is defeated do they get held responsible. Although the Empire is just a puppet state of the Aldmeri Dominion now.

Up until that moment I was willing to give both sides an even chance. Once my character's neck was on the block, she became a Stormcloak. An assassin first, then a Stormcloak second. Meanwhile she kills every Thalmor she sees. Of course she is racially a Nord, probably from Bruma. Tullius will learn what it means to be shouted to pieces.

What gives is that you assumed that the place you crossed the border was near to Helgen

Get him, Girl!

This brings up an interesting point. If you side with Empire do they apologize for almost executing you? ...similar to how Ulfric 'forgives' us if we keep our alleged criminal behavior in the past?

Edited for spelling.

Not as far as I remember. I think there's a passing reference by Tullius if your presence at Helgen arises - but not an apology I think.... Been a long time since I did either faction questline.

Yeah, good points! Tullius should've been more awake since it wasn't a practise session. Anyway, because he wasn't, that's why I suspect conspiracy / criminal activity for "just this once".

What comes to the characters becoming Imperial-minded - if they already aren't - after the intro, that's problematic. I'd never trust a faction again that once has tried to (seemingly) irrationally decapitate me. I couldn't even roleplay an Imperial in Skyrim other than someone who I've decided has previously been a trooper there or otherwise knows their ways. I have this kind of Imperial / Bard going... and I don't even like to play with him at all. Some character COULD forget the incident if (s)he managed to just blame the Captain for everything in his/her mind, but I doubt anyone of us could really do that if it was our heads on that block for real... We wouldn't just reason it out at all, just concentrate on hating the Imperials for the rest of our lives!

This is the third topic where I've recently posted these same things of mine. Over and over I'm surprised how people think the "crossing the border" line limit any roleplaying. It might've been a plant coming from Tullius & co. or even something the man directing the carriage quickly came up with as an answer to Ralof when the PC was still KOd! Ralof: "Why is this guy here? He's not a Stormcloak." Imperial: "Shut up back there! He, umm, tried to cross the border and we stopped him." *PC wakes* Ralof: "You're awake! You tried to cross the border, right?" Imperial: *chuckles*

Or it might be true. Or it might be pretty much anything. Use your imagination! There's no right or wrong answer! Thank god for it - I love gaps in storytelling.


"Bruma! That's where men are women!"

Sorry, couldn't resist now that I had the opportunity. I hope someone gets the reference.

lol

No, crossing the border isn't illegal. You simply got caught while crossing the border.

let me make an example for you: I rob a bank at gunpoint. I stop into the men's room at the bank to take a leak. The cops catch me in the men's room. That doesn't make taking a squirt the illegal act

Well, no, it can't really. If there was more than one ambush, saying "that Imperial ambush" would be wrong. Of course, you could just say he spoke improperly, but if you do that, then you can't take what anyone says about anything because you can just say "he misspoke".

Walking along a nondescript path and stumbling into a group of people who are/begin fighting and in the process of being captured, you may not know exactly where you were or who the people were. You were knocked unconscious in a surprise raid, and when you came to you almost got executed before a dragon attacks and you run for your life. If that's not disorienting, I don't know what is.

No one says you were with the Stormcloaks before the capture. You could just as easily have bumped into them mere seconds before the ambush (maybe you showing up is what distracted them for the Imperials to ambush you guys), or you could've stumbled into the ambush while the two sides were already fighting. Ralof does mention you and Lokir got caught in the same ambush with them.

Now, I havent really done anything regarding the civil war, aside from getting the Jagged Crown, and that was more of a test run than anything. But, in regards to the ambush, Ralof did mention how the Stormcloaks were outnumbered 5 to 1, and it was like the Imperials were waiting for them. Personally, I took that to mean either the work of spies, or perhaps a traitor in the Stormcloak ranks. It wasnt like it was some random Imperial patrol that happened to stumble upon them.

I've started or restarted a few characters these past few days, and at no point do I recall any mention of my being caught at Darkwater Crossing. We were probably detained at any number of places, then rounded up for the trip to Helgen. In any event, the Imperial Captain doesn't give a flying dragon where I came from or whether I was on the list. She only knows where I'm going next: to the block.

Simple:

You were crossing the border (roughly) between imperial/neutral and stormcloak territory.

Thats what I assumed, and the road that we were on at the start leads to Riften as well.