Trying to cross the "border"? Really? : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:46 pm

For the third time... it's quite possible the charges against you ARE COMPLETELY MADE UP.

This shows both a corrupt empire AND allows you to have your own RP backstory.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:53 pm

I just replayed the intro to find out the context of the dialogue... He said they were on their way to darkwater, not near it. They got ambushed. /thread

Actually Ralof says, "Hey! You! You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that imperial ambush same as us and that thief over there." and later he says, "... The Imperials ambushed us just outside of Darkwater Crossing, like they knew exactly where we'd be..."

For the full transcript see spoiler below, thought people would like to be able to refer to it rather than trying to go from memory (I know mine short circuits).

Spoiler

The following dialog is from The Elders Scrolls V: Skyrim and is the property of Bethsesda Inc.
Ralof
Hey! You! You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that imperial ambush same as us and that thief over there.
Lokir
Damn you Stormcloaks! Skyrim was fine until you came along. Empire was nice and lazy. If they hadn't been looking for you I could have stolen that horse and been halfway to Hammerfell. You there, you and me shouldn't be here. it's these Stormcloaks the Empire wants.
Ralof
We're all brothers and sisters in binds now thief.
Guard
Shut up back there!
Lokir
What's wrong with Him?
Ralof
Watch your tongue! You're speaking to Ulfric Stormcloak the true High King.
Lokir
Ulfric? The Jarl of Windhelm? You're the leader of the rebellion. If they captured you? Oh gods, where are they taking us?
Ralof
I don't know where we're going, but Sovengarde awaits.
Lokir
No! This can't be happening. This isn't happening!
Ralof
Hey..what village are you from horse thief?
Lokir
Why do you care?
Ralof
A Nord's last thoughts should be of home.
Lokir
Rorikstead, I'm...I'm from Rorikstead.
Guard
General Tullius sir, the headsman is waiting.
General Tullius
Good. Let's get this over with!
Lokir
Azura, Mara, Dibella, Kynareth, Akatosh, Divines please help me!
Ralof
Look at him! General Tullius the military governor. And it looks like the Thalmor are with him! Damn elves! I bet they had something to do with this! Ahhh, this is Helgen. I used to be sweet on a girl from here. Wonder if Elod is still making that mead with juniper berries? Still...funny, when I was a boy Imperial walls and towers used to make me feel so safe.
Boy
Who are they Daddy, where are they going?
Daddy
You need to go inside.
Boy
Why I wanna watch the soldiers.
Daddy
Inside the house
Guard
Whoa!
Boy
Yes papa.
Captain
Get these prisoners out of the carts.
Lokir
Why are we stopping
Ralof
Why do you think? End of the line. Let's go. Shouldn't keep the gods waiting for us.
Lokir
No! Wait! We're not rebels!
Ralof
Face your death with some courage thief.
Lokir
You've got to tell them we weren't with you! This is a mistake!
Captain
Step toward the block when we call your name one at a time!
Ralof
*exhaled sigh* Empire loves their damn lists!
Hadvar
Ulfric Stormcloak Jarl of Windhelm.
Ralof
It has been an honor Jarl Ulfric.
Hadvar
Ralof of Riverwood.
Hadvar
Lokir of Rorikstead.
Lokir
No! I'm not a rebel. You can't do this. *runs*
Captain
Halt!
Lokir
You're not going to kill me.
Captain
Archers! Anyone else fell like running?
Hadvar
Wait. You there, step forward. Who are you?
*Any number of responses post character generation*
Hadvar
Captain, what should we do (s)he is not on the list.
Captain
Forget the list, (s)he goes to the block.
Hadvar
By your orders Captain! *appropriate apology based on race* Follow the Captain prisoner.
General Tullius
Ulfric Stormcloak some here in Helgen call you a hero. But a hero doesn't use a power like the voioce to murder his king and usurp his throne.
Ulfric
*grunts*
General Tullius
You started this war, plunged Skyrim into chaos and now the Empire is going to put you down and restore the peace.
Dragon sound.
Hadvar
What was that?
General Tullius
It's nothing, carry on!
Captain
Yes, General Tullius! Give them their last rites.
Priest
As we commend your souls to Aetherius blessing of the eight Divines upon you.
Stormcloak
*interrupting* For the love of Talos shut up and let's get this over with!
Priest
...Nirn our beloved...as you wish!
Stormcloak
Come on! I haven't got all morning! My ancestors are smiling at me Imperials, can you say the same?
Stormcloak Female
You Imperial bastards!
Nord Onlookers
Male - Justice!
Female - Death to the Stormclaoks!
Ralof
As fearless in death as he was in life.
Captain
Next, the *race*!
Dragon sound.
Hadvar
There it is again, did you hear that?
Captain
I said next prisoner!
Hadvar
To the block Prisoner nice and easy.
General Tullius
What in Oblivion is that?
Captain
Sentries! What do you see?
Male voice
It's in the clouds.
Female Voice
A dragon!
*Transition to Riverwood following Ralof to scene with Gerdur by the river*
Hod
Now, Ralof what's goin on? You two look pretty well done in!
Ralof
Ahhh well...I can't remember when I last slept. Where to start...well the news you heard about Ulfric was true. The Imperials ambushed us just outside of Darkwater Crossing, like they knew exactly where we'd be. That was two days ago now. We stopped in Helgen this morning; I thought it was all over. Had us lined up for the headsman block ready to start chopping.
Gerdur
The cowards!
Ralof
They wouldn't dare give Ulfric a fair trial. Treason! For fighting for your own people. All of Skyrim would have seen the truth then! But then...out of nowhere a dragon attacked.
*rest is not pertinent*

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:16 pm

*ninja'ed*

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:08 pm

Actually Ralof says, "Hey! You! You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that imperial ambush same as us and that thief over there." and later he says, "... The Imperials ambushed us just outside of Darkwater Crossing, like they knew exactly where we'd be..."

For the full transcript see spoiler below, thought people would like to be able to refer to it rather than trying to go from memory (I know mine short circuits). :wink:

I... just played... the intro... I dont think it could be any more solid. He said they were ambushed on their way to Darkwater... The direction the Stomecloaks were taking to get there is unknown.

Do I need to record this?

Edit: I recorded it, so ill post the video shortly.

Edit2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrx5yw1aSgo

So... you were saying?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:40 pm

Lokir: "No Wait! I'm not a rebel! You can't do this! *runs*

He forgets that only a true rebel will deny being one.

Now you and me? Sounds like we were on the lam for something... maybe figured out how to make crystal skooma or something like that, and were going to make a fortune getting Cyrodiil totally addicted to the stuff like back in the old days. None of this skank crap we get in Skyrim. Probably stole the original formula from a Khajiiti and got nicked for it, escaped, crossed the border, and almost had to dump the stuff when we saw an Imperial patrol. And ended up camped out, and Ulfric and company just happened to camp out nearby so we get hosed. You know the Thalmor War on Talos along with the Imperial War on Skooma. Still it's off with our heads. Hey, Tullius, before you do anything you'll regret, wanna try some of this stuff? It's really good sh**. Make ya feel like a tyrannosaurus rex.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:24 pm

The bigger question is why are you the second one to be executed?

I mean, they have a bunch of stormcloaks, and the stormcloak leader why the hell do they want to kill a random person they found, when they could kill more important ones?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:10 am

I... just played... the intro... I dont think it could be any more solid. He said they were ambushed on their way to Darkwater... The direction the Stomecloaks were taking to get there is unknown.

Do I need to record this?

Edit: I recorded it, so ill post the video shortly.

Edit2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrx5yw1aSgo

So... you were saying?

So, um what you are recording is dialog with Ralof after you've gotten out of Helgen when you Talk to him. The dialog that is in the transcript is not via a prompt discussion, but what occurs naturally as part of the intro movie and then again the pseudo cut scene dialog between Gerdur, Hod and Ralof. If I had frappes and knew how to record all that I would, but....it just doesn't matter. :wink:

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:17 am

The bigger question is why are you the second one to be executed?

I mean, they have a bunch of stormcloaks, and the stormcloak leader why the hell do they want to kill a random person they found, when they could kill more important ones?

You were one of the warmup swings.

And now for the main event! The beheading of the murderer of the High King of Skyrim. (*catcalls*) Gather around folks and watch as the head of Ulfric Stormcloak's head rolls into a basket. Front row seats only 5 septims.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:02 pm

Well ... here in Arizona, USA, it isn't uncommon for people to be caught 'crossing the border' after they get to Tucson or Phoenix- 100+ miles from the border.

My only question on this is, how would they know you'd crossed the border? Were you carrying paperwork? Were you seen?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:29 pm

Darkwater Crossing isn't very far from Eastmarch's border with Whiterun. They just used it as a point of reference, as mostly everything else inbetween there and whiterun's border is forts, caves, and ancient nord ruins. I think your really overthinking it, and just begging to find something to complain about. Oh and also, you'll notice that Eastmarch and Whiterun is a border of the Imperials and Stormcloaks.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:51 pm

So, um what you are recording is dialog with Ralof after you've gotten out of Helgen when you Talk to him. The dialog that is in the transcript is not via a prompt discussion, but what occurs naturally as part of the intro movie and then again the pseudo cut scene dialog between Gerdur, Hod and Ralof. If I had frappes and knew how to record all that I would, but....it just doesn't matter. :wink:

you are joking right? The argument is that you are supposedly captured by the ambush outside darkwater. That video proves that this is fulse. The stormcloaks were ambushed ON THEIR WAY to darkwater. The video proves this. So refute the actual game dialogue is foolish. The intro dialogue NEVER said they were captured outside dark water.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:25 pm

you are joking right? The argument is that you are supposedly captured by the ambush outside darkwater. That video proves that this is fulse. The stormcloaks were ambushed ON THEIR WAY to darkwater. The video proves this. So refute the actual game dialogue is foolish. The intro dialogue NEVER said they were captured outside dark water.

No I'm not joking I'm looking at this from a broader view than one set of dialog. Did you read the transcript from the game dialog that occurs without player interaction? It's all typed out under the spoiler tab in my previous post. The fact that the writers say it a little differently in different places within the dialog is just fine with me, but then again, just because you do a video of you going through one player to NPC interactive dialog doesn't make you 100% correct, nor are you wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that Beth folks wrote it differently in different dialogs and there are, therefore, more ways to look at this than your experience with regards to the Darkwater crossing proximity than just the one dialog you've cited. Cheers! :smile:

P.S. The dialog where Ralof says the words "...just outside Darkwater crossing..." is when he's in Riverwood talking with Hod and Gerdur if that was unclear before.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:01 am

Why is there such a big debate about something so trivial?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:59 am

The problem is that the writing in Skyrim is horrible a lot of the time.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:36 pm

You were caught and you did cross the border. That doesn't mean you didn't successfully cross the border for the time being and wound up in Darkwater Crossing. As for the Horse Thief, he easily could've made the wrong turn and went into Skyrim much deeper than he expected.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:05 pm

You were caught and you did cross the border. That doesn't mean you didn't successfully cross the border for the time being and wound up in Darkwater Crossing. As for the Horse Thief, he easily could've made the wrong turn and went into Skyrim much deeper than he expected.

Well, since Lokir is from Rorikstead, that's not too likely.... He should know his way around southern Skyrim at the very least.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:12 pm

So it's illegal to cross borders in Skyrim?

You don't even look like a Stormcloak, you have ragged clothes and look like a begger.

So why would they assume you were a Stormcloak anyways?

If Lokir stole a horse, how is it your problem and why should you be executed because of it?

If you steal horses any other time you get like a low bounty, maybe 40gold or something.

But an execution?

lol wut?

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:06 pm

There's also the very likely possibility that the charges are entirely false and that all of this overanolysis is completely unnecessary.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:55 pm

This is why I use the Alternate Start mod. Start anywhere in Skyrim, no quests active, wearing nothing but a shirt, and a background story in my head. :biggrin:

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:40 pm

Or is it possible Darwater was simply used as a waypoint that people would use to flee Skyrim. After all, the horse thief was also trying to get away. It may be relatively far from the border, but it might be the best town to use to actually flee from Skyrim. More specifically, because it was being held by the Stormcloaks, nobody there would have ratted them out for attempting to leave Skyrim. Imperial, not so much. Just a thought.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:08 pm

So it's illegal to cross borders in Skyrim?

Not necessarily. Ralof presumes you were trying to cross the border when you were caught (which itself may or may not be true), but no one actually says what you were arrested for. It could just as easily be assumed you were arrested for the (mistaken) assumption that you were a Stormcloak.

You don't even look like a Stormcloak, you have ragged clothes and look like a begger.

So why would they assume you were a Stormcloak anyways?

Because you were with them when they got ambushed. You don't have to be wearing a blue Stormcloak outfit to be presumed to be a Stormcloak.

If Lokir stole a horse, how is it your problem and why should you be executed because of it?

If you steal horses any other time you get like a low bounty, maybe 40gold or something.

He was trying to steal a horse, but didn't get very far. He was in the same area as you and the Stormcloaks when you all got ambushed, so got mixed up with them too.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:17 pm

He said the character was trying to cross the border, which implies a few things:

No Ralof says you were trying to cross the border. When you later go to windhelm and speak to Ulfric about joining the stormcloaks he'll recognize you from Helgan and make a comment "so long as your criminal past stays in the past"

You were not caught with Ulfric. You were just put on the same patty wagon. When you ask about how Uflric was caught he was busted in Darkwater crossing but it doesn't say you were. In fact you can impy you were not anywhere near there because by asking the questions you are saying you have no idea how Ulfric was caught. If you were there you would know.

Ralof mentions being caught in the same ambush as they were.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:43 am

No I'm not joking I'm looking at this from a broader view than one set of dialog. Did you read the transcript from the game dialog that occurs without player interaction? It's all typed out under the spoiler tab in my previous post. The fact that the writers say it a little differently in different places within the dialog is just fine with me, but then again, just because you do a video of you going through one player to NPC interactive dialog doesn't make you 100% correct, nor are you wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that Beth folks wrote it differently in different dialogs and there are, therefore, more ways to look at this than your experience with regards to the Darkwater crossing proximity than just the one dialog you've cited. Cheers! :smile:

P.S. The dialog where Ralof says the words "...just outside Darkwater crossing..." is when he's in Riverwood talking with Hod and Gerdur if that was unclear before.

Ralof mentions being caught in the same ambush as they were.

Ok, so having the full understanding of the dialogue that took place, heres my view.

Rolaf says "Walked right into that imperial ambush same as us and that thief over there." which could be takes as "you walked into an imperial ambush as well". And given my video shoing he tells you that they were ambushed on their way to darkwater only emphasizes that you were not captured together, otherwise you would know this already.

Also in the intro dialogue, Rolaf says he thought they were being taken south to be paraded in front of the emperor, meaning that the imperials may have captures the stomcloaks, then headed south to pick you and the horse thief up before going to helgan.

In riverwood, Rolaf is conversing with his sister, so the player was not included in his recount of events before their meeting in the carrage.

So, with that, the origional argument of the player being captured outside Darkwater is not true.

Edit: Also I really hate the reply boxes because its very difficult to copy and paste text form other sources...

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:25 am

I'm inclined to believe that Raloif mispeaks when he says everyone walked into the imperial ambush together. Since it appears you have never seen Ralof or Ulfric before, you and the horse thief were probably captured at the border crossing into Cyrodil just outside of Helgen, while Ulfric and the stormcloaks were cptured two days before at dark water crossing (or nearby). Ralof's assumption about being taken south into Cyrodil reinforces this a bit since they would have probably headed for that border crossing after picking up the stormcloaks. Also, the horse thief only discovers that he is with Ulfric after Ralof identifies him. I also assume that the horse thief and you struggled before being captured, were knocked out, and are only just coming to outside of Helgen.

» Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:55 pm

Rolaf says "Walked right into that imperial ambush same as us and that thief over there." which could be takes as "you walked into an imperial ambush as well".

"That Imperial ambush" implies there being only one ambush that all of you got mixed up in, since "that" refers to a particular event.

And given my video shoing he tells you that they were ambushed on their way to darkwater only emphasizes that you were not captured together, otherwise you would know this already.

You were knocked unconscious and just came to. You were disoriented, surrounded by people you only had glimpses of before being knocked unconscious and captured. Ralof only tells you about Darkwater when you ask, implying you had trouble remembering.

Not to say you were or weren't at Darkwater, but the dialog heavily implies you, Lokir, and the Stormcloaks were all captured at the same time, wherever that may be.

Also, the horse thief only discovers that he is with Ulfric after Ralof identifies him.

As Ralof says in that video Echonite posted, most people don't know what Ulfric looks like. Lokir knew he was with some Stormcloaks, but he didn't realize he was also with Ulfric. It was only after he realized he was grouped with the leader of the rebellion that he started freaking out.