things are way to easy : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:25 pm

My opinions for a solution is that their should be some kind of level cap in Skyrim around 40 or 45. But it appears many will disagree with that and believe that all characters should be able to max out everything. So Bethesda seems to be in a no win situation.

The best way to do it is have most enemies have varied caps throughout the game world, for example Wolves would be capped at levels 3, 5, 8 and 10, but you would only encounter level 8 and 10 Wolves in the Winterhold and Windhelm area while all other areas are 3 and 5.

Then some enemies should always be exactly equal to the player's level, such as maybe some of the higher tier Bandits and Spriggins.

Finally some enemies should always be scaled above the player, always, to give constant challenge as players may find enemies that are equal to their level potentially easy, especially with the questionable AI. Enemies like Dragon Priests, Alduin, Dragons should all be scaled to be at least 3-5 levels higher than the player.

To go along with that, especially in the case of enemies that are always equal to the player, only some should be as well equipped. Just because the Bandit Marauder is level 50 right along side you doesn't mean he has to be decked out in full Daedric gear, said Bandit could be wearing Elven or even Scale based on the region they are in or simply by random determination.

This is the best way to do it.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:19 am

Your logic is similar to a guy buying a high powered rifle with scope and then complaining that deer hunting isn't a challenge anymore.

Fine...dump the rifle and scope and deer hunt with a dagger.
"But I want the rifle, scope, AND a challenge. Why would they make a rifle and scope if it's not supposed to be used?"

Ummm.......whatever.

I disagree, what we need are some genetically engineered badass deer with basic Army Rangers training. :biggrin:

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:56 am

This is the best way to do it.

It won't work. Scaling doesn't help when you can create godly gear.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:52 am

Or rely on 3rd parties to find that balance. Because the developer is incompetent of providing such.

It's not incompetence - it's design philosophy. The game has also been made for people who find crafting boring, or don't want to do it with their character.

God if I had to spend hours crafting weapons and armour just to get thru a dungeon, my copy would be sitting on a 'pre-owned' shelf right now.

To anyone else roleplaying a blacksmith / townsperson / power-leveller I say the same thing. You made your bed...lie in it.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:07 am

I disagree, what we need are some genetically engineered badass deer with basic Army Rangers training. :biggrin:

Hehe...awesome :biggrin:

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:38 am

It won't work. Scaling doesn't help when you can create godly gear.

That's kind of a problem now isn't it? That the entire balance of the game, whether enemies are scaled or static, can be completely man handled by using a mechanic that is freely given to the player.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:18 am

It's not incompetence - it's design philosophy. The game has also been made for people who find crafting boring, or don't want to do it with their character.

I have to disagree with you there. When playing master difficulty, you sort of have to rely on otherthings, besides your main rp skills just to survive and level up.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:34 am

That they stop leveling. If the player can obtain a level, i.e. level 81, there should be some enemies in the world that can follow suit and, in very small cases, surpass that level to continue an environment of challenge throughout the entire gaming experience.

A standard Wolf does not need to touch anywhere higher than level 15 or so, but a Dragon Priest? Why is a Dragon Priest capping out much sooner than the player? Why are the Dragons, the main enemies of the game, not hitting level 75+ when the player can dance around at 81?

Perhaps because you're already a master swordsman at level 50, and getting to level 81 requires you to be a master preacher/lockpicker/alchemist which is completely irrelevant to your level 50 playstyle?

Let's break down hat you get when you level up:
1. 10 points to either Magicka/Health/Stamina
2. 1 perk point to spend

And that's that. You don't get increased Damage/Defense. Damage can only be increased by smithing or finding new weapons, all of which are accessible well before level 50. Damage increasing perks can be accessed at skill level 80, which can be reached well before player level 50.

Leveling up does allow you to take more hits, use power attacks more often, or use another school of magic you haven't made magicka-free yet. But in no way does it actually affect your main playstyle. You're a master swordsman at level 50? Good to know. Are you still a master swordsman at level 81? Awesome. Have your gear changed at all? Have your playstyle changed at all? Can you actually deal more damage with your skills alone?

Sure, you can say "Oh, now that I'm ALSO a master alchemist/smith, my damage DOES increase, idiot". Yes, that's correct. Could you have taken them before reaching level 50? Why yes of course.

In order to reach level 81, your master swordsman is required to be a master bargainer, a master illusionist, a master lock-breaker, a master healer and master of every other skills. You're basically a Jedi at that point, and you don't have to be a Jedi to be a badass fighter.

If you actually use these unnecessary skills in combat instead of grinding them to take advantage of the perk points, the game does become a bit challenging again, especially for you mages out there (master smiths can simply cook a beefed up weapon)

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:23 pm

Perhaps because you're already a master swordsman at level 50, and getting to level 81 requires you to be a master preacher/lockpicker/alchemist which is completely irrelevant to your level 50 playstyle?

Let's break down hat you get when you level up:
1. 10 points to either Magicka/Health/Stamina
2. 1 perk point to spend

And that's that. You don't get increased Damage/Defense. Damage can only be increased by smithing or finding new weapons, all of which are accessible well before level 50. Damage increasing perks can be accessed at skill level 80, which can be reached well before player level 50.

Leveling up does allow you to take more hits, use power attacks more often, or use another school of magic you haven't made magicka-free yet. But in no way does it actually affect your main playstyle. You're a master swordsman at level 50? Good to know. Are you still a master swordsman at level 81? Awesome. Have your gear changed at all? Have your playstyle changed at all? Can you actually deal more damage with your skills alone?

Sure, you can say "Oh, now that I'm ALSO a master alchemist/smith, my damage DOES increase, idiot". Yes, that's correct. Could you have taken them before reaching level 50? Why yes of course.

In order to reach level 81, your master swordsman is required to be a master bargainer, a master illusionist, a master lock-breaker, a master healer and master of every other skills. You're basically a Jedi at that point, and you don't have to be a Jedi to be a badass fighter.

If you actually use these unnecessary skills in combat instead of grinding them to take advantage of the perk points, the game does become a bit challenging again, especially for you mages out there (master smiths can simply cook a beefed up weapon)

None of that however stops the fact that the player can reach level 81 which allows them to have more Magicka, Health or Stamina, which means they can cast longer, take more hits and perform more abilities than their level 50 opposition, especially if the player has maxed out crafting to its fullest.

Enemies stopping at level 50 is not the only issue that makes the game easy, even on Master. AI, is one giant glaring problem. Enemies being dumped with more Health but given no Armor (Dragons specifically) is another. A lack of any difficulty being added other than enemies having more Health and do more damage while the player does less damage is a large factor as well.

The easiest to explain, and fix, is simply having enemies be able to reach level 81 or to simply stop the player at level 50.

Even Jedi are defeated by Sith from time to time.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:18 am

It's not incompetence - it's design philosophy. The game has also been made for people who find crafting boring, or don't want to do it with their character.

God if I had to spend hours crafting weapons and armour just to get thru a dungeon, my copy would be sitting on a 'pre-owned' shelf right now.

To anyone else roleplaying a blacksmith / townsperson / power-leveller I say the same thing. You made your bed...lie in it.

So why not cater to everyone? Competitors have done so why can't Bethesda? Unable to so; don't want too? I would imagine if you did cater to everyone more people would play your game overall of all kinds. Not to extremes and in this case not like Dark Souls (where its more patience then anything i might add) but a system that will at least touch upon everyone that is supported by a in game mechanic not just "gimping" yourself relying on "role playing" methods but actual game mechanics supporting it.

Would you mind personally if the game did in fact require a certain weapon and armor set to get through a certain dungeon but ONLY at MASTER or HARD difficult when Adpet/Novice does not require that? Allow people play how they like by choosing what mechanics that support such do not just favor one target but to everyone. I personally play games not to stroll around look at the cardboard scenery that doesn't change I play them for a challenge. If I wanted scenery I would go outside to a park.

Difficulty does not just contain how easy it is too kill or be killed it is much more then that. TES in general lacking in that regard but even more so with Oblivion above. Sadly BGS thought how much HP an enemy has = difficulty which is what Oblivion's major flaw was very hard wasn't "hard" is was just long as hell that you would rather just drop your weapon and go "kill me now" Fallout 3 improved but still hasn't reached perfection Skyrim hasn't really improved much over FO3.

And until a justifiable level of difficulty is in their games expect criticism because that is flaw in their games maybe not to you but to others. Maybe you want to be demi god they can still keep that option within the game and still allow those who do not want such be supported by mechanics it is not impossible because again competitors have done such.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:34 pm

None of that however stops the fact that the player can reach level 81 which allows them to have more Magicka, Health or Stamina, which means they can cast longer, take more hits and perform more abilities than their level 50 opposition, especially if the player has maxed out crafting to its fullest.

Enemies stopping at level 50 is not the only issue that makes the game easy, even on Master. AI, is one giant glaring problem. Enemies being dumped with more Health but given no Armor (Dragons specifically) is another. A lack of any difficulty being added other than enemies having more Health and do more damage while the player does less damage is a large factor as well.

The easiest to explain, and fix, is simply having enemies be able to reach level 81 or to simply stop the player at level 50.

Even Jedi are defeated by Sith from time to time.

Why not I ask you one question:
"What is the definition of more challenging?"

Is it:
A) Enemies have a crapload of more health, translating to less exploring and longer tedious combat?
B )Enemies spawn in greater number, translating to you resorting to bottleneck tactics every so often?
C) Enemies are more clever, which has no static definition?
D) Enemies have a crapload of more power, translating to two-hit-death for even a generic enemy?

Omega Weapon in Final Fantasy VIII and X is "challenging" because it has point A and D. It doesn't have point C. Just about every single "challenging" enemy in a Final Fantasy game is challenging because it has "ComputerIsACheating******" statistics. They are immune to every single status effects yet their attacks deal all kinds of status effects. Their HP is around one million while you're confined to 4 digits. Each of their attacks deal a crapton of damage while their defense is high as crap.

Go and take a look at every single "challenging" enemy in the history of gaming. Almost none is actually clever. They simply have cheated base statistic and moveset, and dealing with them requires gamers to use every exploit available. In Skyrim this translates to you either exploiting Dual-Cast stagger or going for Master Smith/Alchemist combo. None of which is pretty popular

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:32 am

None of that however stops the fact that the player can reach level 81 which allows them to have more Magicka, Health or Stamina, which means they can cast longer, take more hits and perform more abilities than their level 50 opposition, especially if the player has maxed out crafting to its fullest.

Enemies stopping at level 50 is not the only issue that makes the game easy, even on Master. AI, is one giant glaring problem. Enemies being dumped with more Health but given no Armor (Dragons specifically) is another. A lack of any difficulty being added other than enemies having more Health and do more damage while the player does less damage is a large factor as well.

The easiest to explain, and fix, is simply having enemies be able to reach level 81 or to simply stop the player at level 50.

Even Jedi are defeated by Sith from time to time.

If you check out the stats of the npcs on the below links, I think you'll realise that some npc stats are all well and truly above what PC can achieve at that level. It's not the level scaling, it's the descrepancy in gear. I've almost died on few occasions from Daedras that have enchantment on their gear, even at level 81.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragon

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Draugr_Overlord

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Bandits_(Skyrim)

» Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:00 pm

Why not I ask you one question:
"What is the definition of more challenging?"

Is it:
A) Enemies have a crapload of more health, translating to less exploring and longer tedious combat?
B )Enemies spawn in greater number, translating to you resorting to bottleneck tactics every so often?
C) Enemies are more clever, which has no static definition?
D) Enemies have a crapload of more power, translating to two-hit-death for even a generic enemy?

Omega Weapon in Final Fantasy VIII and X is "challenging" because it has point A and D. It doesn't have point C. Just about every single "challenging" enemy in a Final Fantasy game is challenging because it has "ComputerIsACheating******" statistics. They are immune to every single status effects yet their attacks deal all kinds of status effects. Their HP is around one million while you're confined to 4 digits. Each of their attacks deal a crapton of damage while their defense is high as crap.

Go and take a look at every single "challenging" enemy in the history of gaming. Almost none is actually clever. They simply have cheated base statistic and moveset, and dealing with them requires gamers to use every exploit available. In Skyrim this translates to you either exploiting Dual-Cast stagger or going for Master Smith/Alchemist combo. None of which is pretty popular

Perhaps Skyrim should have then taken a page from more recent games as well as older games, for example Dungeons & Dragons.

For the more recent example, enemies in games like Gears of War and Mass Effect are being programmed to have better AI, to have better positioning, better tactics, etc. Not only that but in some instances of games, like God of War, a handful of enemies begin blocking or avoiding frequently used attacks. The Satyrs from God of War I did this, if the player relied heavily on one form of attack they would begin blocking it.

For the example of older games, a perfect example can be drawn from a campaign a friend of mine ran. In this campaign the heroes had been accumulating a well spring of enchanted and magical items, having as many as Jarlaxle at times (Wiki him if you have any interest), and thus could deal with nearly any foe and any situation. So the DM came up with the challenge of having the player characters go into a crypt that was sealed up in a "Null Magic Zone." The players therefore had to adapt to the new difficulty of not being enchanted Warlords of power.

One does not have to limit the game in the four fashions you listed. A Dragon Priest for example can be equipped with a "Dispel Aura" which negates any and all enchantments within the radius, or could degrade equipment down to its normal and un~upgraded level.

A Dragon could use the Etheral Shout rather than simply be limited to Fire and Ice Breath.

A Bandit could be given some of the Weapon Perks, like being able to negate Armor.

Etc, etc.

If you check out the stats of the npcs on the below links, I think you'll realise that some npc stats are all well and truly above what PC can achieve at that level. It's not the level scaling, it's the descrepancy in gear. I've almost died on few occasions from Daedras that have enchantment on their gear, even at level 81.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Dragon

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Draugr_Overlord

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Bandits_(Skyrim)

Did I not say that enemies stopping at level 50 was not the only issue?

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:20 am

Perhaps Skyrim should have then taken a page from more recent games as well as older games, for example Dungeons & Dragons.

For the more recent example, enemies in games like Gears of War and Mass Effect are being programmed to have better AI, to have better positioning, better tactics, etc. Not only that but in some instances of games, like God of War, a handful of enemies begin blocking or avoiding frequently used attacks. The Satyrs from God of War I did this, if the player relied heavily on one form of attack they would begin blocking it.

For the example of older games, a perfect example can be drawn from a campaign a friend of mine ran. In this campaign the heroes had been accumulating a well spring of enchanted and magical items, having as many as Jarlaxle at times (Wiki him if you have any interest), and thus could deal with nearly any foe and any situation. So the DM came up with the challenge of having the player characters go into a crypt that was sealed up in a "Null Magic Zone." The players therefore had to adapt to the new difficulty of not being enchanted Warlords of power.

One does not have to limit the game in the four fashions you listed. A Dragon Priest for example can be equipped with a "Dispel Aura" which negates any and all enchantments within the radius, or could degrade equipment down to its normal and un~upgraded level.

A Dragon could use the Etheral Shout rather than simply be limited to Fire and Ice Breath.

A Bandit could be given some of the Weapon Perks, like being able to negate Armor.

Etc, etc.

I will not say I don't like your ideas. They are actually good ones. But in Gears of War and Mass Effect, you have only one form of attack: ranged. In God of War you have only one form of attack: melee. The range of "ranged" may be short (like if you use shotgun) and the range of "melee" may be a bit far (the length of the chain is longer than Kratos' height if I see it correctly), but player actions is pretty much expectable.

I will not dismiss your "null magic area" idea. It is pretty good. But it doesn't really have anything to do with the difficulty level and player level, which is what you're complaining about. The idea adds variety and challenge, but the challenge doesn't really scale, and it will force players to not play their playstyle. There have already been people complaining why they need to join ~~Mages Guild~~ College of Winterhold to enter Saarthal. Forcing players to abandon magic altogether will surely infuriate the mage players

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:51 am

I will not say I don't like your ideas. They are actually good ones. But in Gears of War and Mass Effect, you have only one form of attack: ranged. In God of War you have only one form of attack: melee. The range of "ranged" may be short (like if you use shotgun) and the range of "melee" may be a bit far (the length of the chain is longer than Kratos' height if I see it correctly), but player actions is pretty much expectable.

I will not dismiss your "null magic area" idea. It is pretty good. But it doesn't really have anything to do with the difficulty level and player level, which is what you're complaining about. The idea adds variety and challenge, but the challenge doesn't really scale, and it will force players to not play their playstyle. There have already been people complaining why they need to join ~~Mages Guild~~ College of Winterhold to enter Saarthal. Forcing players to abandon magic altogether will surely infuriate the mage players

Neither Gears or Mass Effect only have one form of attack, nor does God of War. Both Gears and Mass Effect have melee combat and some enemies react to melee combat much differently in both franchises, additionally God of War does have ranged combat in regards to things like Zeus' Lightning. In Mass Effect 3 if you try to melee a Centurion they will simply laugh at you and smack you away.

The Null Magic area was a simple example of how to deal with difficulty outside of the four ways you presented, which unfortunately are the current norm in gaming. And forcing players to not play their particular desired play style has been a factor in challenge and difficulty ever since video games have been around. Even fighting against the computer in a game like Street Fighter forces me to change how I match myself against various opponents. I am not going to fight Dhalsim in the same way I will fight Zangief. Nor does something like a "Null Magic Zone" force players to completely abandon magic as other ways to deal with the dungeon, or in this case the trap, could be created. A hidden switch to deactivate the Null Zone, a special item to protect the player from the zone, etc, etc.

Player and enemy level is the easiest thing to deal with because at the end of the day it's simply one of two options; do we allow the enemy to reach the same level as the player or do we cap the player down to the max level of the enemy? That's why it's being focused on right now in this discussion because it is the easiest fix.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:01 am

Two days this thread has been up, and Ruckasnucka has only replied once. Somehow I don't think this is a serious thread.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:57 am

It won't work. Scaling doesn't help when you can create godly gear.

Then fix the broken mechanics by which you can create godly gear, since we're on a fixing streak. Crafting is one of the biggest problems, and most in need of fixing, in the entire game.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:31 am

I think the biggest problem isn't how easy it is to kill things, its just way too easy
to make a great character and level up really fast to the point where you can kill
everything. It would be alot more satisfying killing everything with a great character
if it was more of a rarity. I was reading the guide for Morrowind and it said one of the
goals of the Elder Scrolls is that you can make any character you want. It said: "You
can make a wizard who wears heavy armor, and it'll be a bad character, but we still
want to give you the ability to do it." Strangely, I think the ability to actually have a
poorly made character is missing from Skyrim.