Skyrim's biggest problem is the way it puts story before pla : V - Skyrim

» Wed May 30, 2012 10:05 am

You is describing every game already made (Or the vast majority of them). Most Games (Without counting Strategy Games) have a already-written history that you, as protagonist, must follow. There already are discussions about what will be canon Stormcloaks or the Empire. What would be the gain, from a developer point-of-view to let you side with Potema in her domination of the world? That would simply destroy many plots planned for TES VI.
TES games in general own every other game because what the developers let you do (content) is far superior to most other games.

You never will have the possibility do whatever you want, not until they invent Procedural-Generated-Content that is believable and looks good.

Agreed, but what the OP and Greed are saying is that Skyrim goes in the opposite direction an ES game should, in ways like essential NPC's. That is giving less choice and freedom to the player. If you are not going to move forward in your games philosophy, at least don't move backwards.

» Tue May 29, 2012 11:14 pm

I agree with the OP.

For example, in Oblivion, I could RP as some random farmer guy, and pretend that the introduction was just a dream. I could never go to Weynon Priory and nothing would ever happen. I could simply make up my own story.

In Skyrim however, you are CONSTANTLY beat over the head with the story. Everywhere you go, everyone is going crazy, you can't buy homes without insane quests and what-not. Its impossible to Role-Play as a non-dragonborn unless you are a hermit in the woods, its shameful really.

» Wed May 30, 2012 9:30 am

You is describing every game already made (Or the vast majority of them). Most Games (Without counting Strategy Games) have a already-written history that you, as protagonist, must follow. There already are discussions about what will be canon Stormcloaks or the Empire. What would be the gain, from a developer point-of-view to let you side with Potema in her domination of the world? That would simply destroy many plots planned for TES VI.
TES games in general own every other game because what the developers let you do (content) is far superior to most other games.

You never will have the possibility do whatever you want, not until they invent Procedural-Generated-Content that is believable and looks good.

The problem is not that we're not given total freedom. It's that we're given less with each game Bethesda puts out.

In Morrowind, you were able to kill Vivec. The game even allow you to finish the main quest after doing so, as he dropped a left-handed version of the Wraithguard. The game was designed to cater to your choices, within reason and technical limitations, not the other way around.

What would be gained from allowing us to side with Potema? About the same that's to be gained by allowing us to decide who wins the war, or even to kill Vivec. Ultimately, our choices have absolutely no affect on the lore. It's already written and will happen a certain way, regardless of how we play the same. So why is it too much to ask for more freedom? Look at all the possible endings in Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas. I'm sure Fallout 4 isn't going to cater to every single ending that was available, so why must TES games be given lesser freedom?

Bethesda created Skyrim in a way that your hand is being held throughout the game. They're showing you the game in the way they want you to see it. You can't go out and explore without knowing what's around you. You can't go out on the information given to you by quest givers and have fun finding the locations they described. Hell, I just found a dead body with a note, and as soon as I ready the note, a location was marked on my map. Was there a map on the note? Nope. The game said, "Hey, that sounds like fun, doesn't it? Yes, it does. Here's where that place is, now fast travel to a nearby location and walk there!" Yeah, great fun, and freedom.

» Tue May 29, 2012 11:52 pm

Agreed, but what the OP and Greed are saying is that Skyrim goes in the opposite direction an ES game should, in ways like essential NPC's. That is giving less choice and freedom to the player. If you are not going to move forward in your games philosophy, at least don't move backwards.

If they simply said that, they would have more people agreeing with them. But not, it's necessary to say that Bethesda is a liar, Morrowind is better, Skyrim svcks and TES is doomed to prove a point. :facepalm:

@Greed
I agree that we are receiving less choices, I just don't think that we are in a critical linear-like shortage of choices.

About Potema that would be a massive lore change, so I think we can agree that it shouldn't be possible by the simple fact that in TES VI we would be under Potema's undead rule. :tongue:

» Wed May 30, 2012 12:15 pm

We could go 'round and 'round with this, but yes, the OP is right.

When you go to Dragonsreach, the game automatically assumes you're there to talk about the main quest. I go to talk to the steward and I get svcked into the Jarl's conversation. Yes, once he's done I can ignore him, but it's definitely a mechanic that seems to keep saying "Don't forget about the main quest!" You can go off and do whatever you want, miscellaneous quests, wander around, etc., but at certain points it seems you can't talk to people without the game wanting to advance the story line, whether you want to or not.

I don't think there should be any automatic script. I'd like it better if you could go up to someone like the Dragonsreach Jarl and he said "What do you want to talk about?" and then you could have the option to hear about the main quest, ask him about the town, or have a reply like "Nothing. I should be going." At least then you'd be able to take a more active role in what your character listens to.

» Tue May 29, 2012 9:56 pm

If they simply said that, they would have more people agreeing with them. But not, it's necessary to say that Bethesda is a liar, Morrowind is better, Skyrim svcks and TES is doomed to prove a point. :facepalm:

I think you're making things up, if you re-read my posts I never said one of those things. I'm simply talking about the game based on it's own merits, and compared to it's predecessors. I do think Morrowind and Oblivion are better, but I never brought that into the conversation for no reason. My OP simply lists a bunch of examples of how I believe the game stifles your freedom. If you see any blind bashing in there it's only because you're looking for it.

» Wed May 30, 2012 12:08 am

In my opinion:
Bethesda has done a good job on this game cos they're looking at the lowest denominator and catering for a majority of fans. I don't know how much they've sold but I bet it's loads already. I bet there have been lots of games released where developers have spent lots of time designing, creating and polishing a game only to have it fail and lose money. If Oblivion or Skyrim had been made in a way that I would enjoy more I would not be surprised if it failed. For example, I would prefer if u had to sleep and eat everyday, and a bit more depth to the 'well rested' thing, to be constrained in some ways to have a more realistic game which was open ended in other ways. But if Oblivion had been made more like that then Skrim would fail etc. Then I like Temple of Elemental Evil because the combat system is open ended (for me at least) as well as the sorts of freedoms you have are more logical to me.

The real problems are the DLC, mod stuff and whether console owners will put up with that sort of stuff indefinitely, the anti-piracy and spying on your system kind of thing, which, as far as I know, can be bypassed by crackers/hackers or whatever thereby punishing those who pay for the thing. Companies releasing broken games which are designed to be fixed but only if they make enough money and if they dont then screw it, do it yourself.

» Wed May 30, 2012 5:24 am

Let's not forget that there are many places that have dragon shouts in them. This is a constant reminder that you are the "Hero of Prophecy".

So much for playing what you want to play and having freedom...

» Tue May 29, 2012 10:21 pm

And then that guy gets out of his chair, and stands in the mage's room, waiting for you to do his quest. And he will stand there for all eternity if you never do his quest.

It's about the way the whole game feels structured to funnel you into quests and plotlines. Obviously you can still ignore them if you make an effort to, but it's the fact that an effort has to be made at all that makes the game feel so stifling. I made a myriad of other points in my OP by the way that people haven't touched on. The Whiterun issue is not the only issue by a long shot.

Well, when you go so deep that you think there shouldn't be a basic story that is happening, ie the dragon invasion, the fact that the game takes place in Skyrim or that there's a civil war going on then yes I agree with you but if you do agree with the fundamentals of the game then I think you're wrong in your assumptions.

You say you don't want to play as the dovahkin and with that decision comes the fact that if you don't do that favour for the jarl of Whiterun, he isn't interested in talking to you (well, technically he won't due to the game but not hard to see rp-wise either) and then again who are you to be allowed into the castle to talk to the jarl or the court mage ? Why should they pay any attention to you ?
There seem to be some who think there shouldn't be any fundamental story what so ever in the game.
The basic concept of this game is that you are Dovahkin. You don't have to embrace that fate but that is a basic fact, same as the game taking place 200 ? years or so after the oblivion crisis and that it's in Skyrim. Those are the basics of the game.

» Tue May 29, 2012 9:23 pm

Well, when you go so deep that you think there shouldn't be a basic story that is happening, ie the dragon invasion, the fact that the game takes place in Skyrim or that there's a civil war going on then yes I agree with you but if you do agree with the fundamentals of the game then I think you're wrong in your assumptions.

You say you don't want to play as the dovahkin and with that decision comes the fact that if you don't do that favour for the jarl of Whiterun, he isn't interested in talking to you (well, technically he won't due to the game but not hard to see rp-wise either) and then again who are you to be allowed into the castle to talk to the jarl or the court mage ? Why should they pay any attention to you ?
There seem to be some who think there shouldn't be any fundamental story what so ever in the game.
The basic concept of this game is that you are Dovahkin. You don't have to embrace that fate but that is a basic fact, same as the game taking place 200 ? years or so after the oblivion crisis and that it's in Skyrim. Those are the basics of the game.

But the idea that you are Dovahkin, no matter what, goes against what an Elder Scrolls game should be. I don't want this thread to be about whether the main quest is bad or not, but personally I don't enjoy the Dovahkin plot-line in the slightest, and I want the choice to ignore it entirely. In Oblivion, your character is not automatically the Champion of Cyrodil, they only become the Champion if you actively seek out the main quest. I don't see how anyone can be okay with Bethesda changing that for this game.

» Wed May 30, 2012 12:37 am

That was literally as complicated as spinning the persuasion wheel a few times. It's the same as having a conversation with someone before getting down to business. In Oblivion, you did not have to do everybody's side quest in Skingrad, then hunt down an illegal drug trade in the sewers before you could buy the mansion. It was a persuasion wheel.

But until you got your Fame / Personality / Speech high enough, their max persuasion wouldn't go high enough to get the offer to buy a house. Wanted to try a mod that was based around ownership of a certain house. Spent a week first doing quests and boosting my Speech & Personality, so I could buy the damn thing. Don't need to do nearly as many quests to become a trusted citizen in Skyrim. :shrug: