I've been trying to figure out why Skyrim doesn't resonate with me the way Oblivion and Morrowind do. Those are my two favorite games of all time, but mere weeks after it's release Skyrim has fallen flat, and I'm eagerly awaiting the creation kit. I think the underlying problem, at least for me, is in how the game forces quests, story, and exposition on the player, regardless of whether they've asked for it or not. Some examples:

-When you walk into Whiterun, you are forced into main quest dialogue
-When you walk into Dragonsreach castle, you're forced into more main quest dialogue and must sit through a scripted conversation before you can even talk to the steward, and you can't talk to the Jarl at all unless you do the main quest
-When you walk into Windhelm's castle, same thing. Ulfric and his right-hand man have a scripted conversation regarding the civil war and you can't talk to them about anything other than joining the rebellion. You can't even buy a house in Windhelm without becoming a Stormcloak.
-There are scripted, expository dialogue scenes in every single town/city and almost every building in the game. These are poor to begin with, and it becomes exhaustive sitting through them every time you make a new character.
-If you choose to play the main quest, you're forced to also join the College and Thieves Guild for reasons that are completely arbitrary.
-You can't enter certain dungeons if they're guild restricted. So for example if you want the dragon shout in Labyrinthian, you have to join the College. And if you want to complete the Forbidden Legend quest, you have to join the College as well.
-You can't buy the Whiterun house without doing the mainquest
-For some reason you can buy a house in Riften, Solitude, or Markarth without becoming a Thane first. Why? I don't see any other thanes in these cities, when was this requirement put into place? Why can't I just walk into a city with a pile of gold and buy the house I want, like in Oblivion?

These are the examples I could think of at the time of writing this. Oblivion and Morrowind do none of this. As terrible as Oblivion's main quest was, I respect the fact that if you never went to Weynon Priory and talked to Jauffre, you would never even hear mention of it, let alone be forced to do it for a certain quest/dungeon/house. Oblivion had an overwhelming sense of freedom. Not only could you do anything you wanted, you could ignore anything you wanted. Not so in Skyrim. This game is designed to funnel you towards questlines, regardless of whether you want to do them or not. It's irrelevant that the questlines are awful to begin with in Skyrim, because even if they were amazing I would still want the option to completely ignore them. I think it's poor design, and it makes the game feel stifling to me.

yes you can, after MQ


You just have to get in the front gates of the college by arguing that you are dragonborn. you dont have to join the thieves guild at all


They have other, more pressing things on their mind besides entertaining the level 1 Breton that just walked in the door.


actually you cant become thane without having a house, not the other way around. you cant buy property because the Jarls dont just let anyone move in. I find this system better in that you have to prove yourself worthy of a spot in the city.


I agree that some interlinks shouldnt be there and it can be abit sloppy, but largely Im not phased by them

Even if that were true I don't see that as a "problem".

Well that's kind of proving my point.

You're right about the College, but with the thieves guild you actually have to do the initiation mission for Brynjolf, and then when you go down to the Ratway to find Esbern, everyone starts chatting you up as though you're joining the guild. It's incredibly sloppy and there's no reason for it. Why did they have to put Esbern behind the thieves guild? They could have put him in any other dungeon, but they put him there because they wanted to funnel the player into another questline.

Again that's proving my point, the game puts story before player freedom. In Oblivion, the emperor has just been assassinated. But if you don't pursue the main quest, you'll never hear about this save for an occasional NPC referencing it. How frustrating would it have been in Oblivion if every time you walked into a castle for the first time, you had to sit through scripted dialogue about the emperor's death before you could talk to the count about buying a house? Oblivion didn't force it's story on you in any way. Skyrim does this in droves, which makes it feel much less free than it's predecessors.

But it doesn't even make sense, and it's the game forcing quests on you once again. Did all the lowly shopkeepers in Riften become Thanes as well before moving in? Or the people living on the docks? Are you telling me the rich dunmer woman living in a mansion first had to go out and kill bandits, then stop an illegal drug trade before she could move into said mansion?

On top of this, I just thought of two more instances in the game:

-You can't enter Riften without getting a speech about the Black Briars from that Maul character, who never shows up in any quest later on. And then, take two more steps into the city and you're forced into dialogue with Brynjolf. Apparently Brynjolf asks all new visitors to the city to join the Thieves Guild. And if you ignore his offer, he'll stand in the market for eternity, waiting for you to accept it. This is absurd, in Oblivion you had to actively seek out the Thieves Guild, and there was a competition to get in. I realize this is a different game, different guild, but again it feels sloppy, forced, and takes all the intrigue and excitement out of getting into the guild. It doesn't feel like an accomplishment when one of the guild's leaders walks right up to you, tells you to join regardless of what kind of character you're playing, then gives you an incredibly basic pickpocketing quest that seems impossible to fail. Then you're in, no matter what.

I get what you're saying. However, dreams from Azura while on the Imperial ship with Jiub in Morrowind. The Emperor telling you he knows your face from visions in the Imperial dungeon in Oblivion. Dragon born in Skyrim. Your character is supposed to be the center of the storyline. You don't have to follow the main storyline, but they show you the way to it very clearly.

But again this only further supports my point. In Oblivion and Morrowind, there were references made to your characters role in the main quest at the very start, but as soon as you got off the ship in Morrowind, you never had to hear about it again if you didn't actively pursue the main quest. And in Oblivion, as soon as you got out of the sewers, you never had to hear about it again unless you actively pursued the main quest.

Then in Skyrim, I'm trying to roleplay my High Elf mage, I walk into Whiterun castle to buy some spells and all of the sudden it's like I'm forced into an expository dialogue scene from Star Wars. It doesn't matter if your character is supposed be Dragonborn, or Nerravarine. The entire point of Elder Scrolls is that you can ignore that, and be whatever you want. Skyrim forgets this.

wow you make some good points, also..... whats a thane?

What?

In Morrowind, you're booted off a ship and told- ordered actually, to go see the Imperial authorities and start working for the Good Ole Emperor right away

In Oblivion, the Emperor personally charges you with starting the MQ and you have zero choice but to be there when he does!

Are you on drugs or something?! In Skyrim, you're told to visit a guy's sister, if you want to.

hmmm really? If I recall correctly the first thing the guy you escape with from helgen says is "We should split up."
So I split up and I didn't touch the main quest, nor was forced into doing it until around my 50th hour when I decided that the time had at last come.

I agree with the people before me. Ralof clearly tells you to split up.

Read my above post. In Oblivion and Morrowind, you could completely ignore those commands once you exited the tutorial, and if you did you would never hear mention of it again. In Skyrim you can certainly ignore the quest to go to Riverwood, but as I pointed out above, you will nevertheless be thrust into main quest dialogue and expository scenes elsewhere throughout the game.

And I would make the statement that I found it utterly bizarre that the emperor had been assassinated, the blades had been demolished, all the heirs to the throne where dead, and yet only regular civilians would talk about it. This isn't about the story forcing you to do something, it's the fact that the Jarls SHOULD be concerned about civil war and the reappearance of dragons. Also, why should they suddenly stop all business to speak with a level 1 breton? Why?

No the other shop keepers and citizens didn't have to prove themselves. But they also didn't try and move into the city in the middle of a civil war and a period of extreme upheaval. It makes sense to me, after all each Jarl is currently loyal to either one side or the other (with the exception of Whiterun) and they don't want spies in their midst, nor do they want other problems. SO, to purchase the VERY LAST open home you've got to prove yourself. I can understand that, better than I can the expectation that a Jarl will drop everything he's doing to talk to some random outsider who walked into the room without an appointment

There are not many options. You either do a quest or don't the quest. That simple. There are no alternative methods to alot of quests, no real in game reactions to doing quests a certain way, etc.

Agreed. They create this huge world and then do so much to take out the exploration of it.

The world is not going to stop just because you don't want anything to do with the MQ. You know why it's pushed in here? Because people on this forum were complaining that you weren't involved enough in Oblivion's MQ.

I did read it. That's why i asked you the questions I asked

In OB and MW, you're started off on the MQ from the first second of play. In Skyrim you're not.

But here you are, telling me that OB and MW didn't do it

I've been able to make it as far into the main quest as and all without joiining ANY guilds or picking a side in the civil war. I was able to talk to both the General and the rebel without having to side with them

Yes I completely understand that these instances make sense due to the story, but that's largely what my thread is about; the fact that Bethesda put the story before player freedom. Oblivion had just as urgent of a main quest, but Bethesda's decision to not have it interfere with the game world unless the player actively sought it out was what made Oblivion so brilliant. Oblivion could have whatever story you wanted it to have. In Skyrim you're constantly beat over the head with Bethesda's main plot. There's no escaping it, no matter what kind of a story you're trying to play for yourself, or what kind of character you have made, you're constantly playing in the shadow of Bethesda's main plot, whether you like it or not.

Yeah, I might go for that, if I wasn't able to get a house in Solitude while being a high ranking member of the stormcloaks, or other things like that.

In Oblivion, before you could buy the houses, you needed to build up a certain level of fame and get the disposition of the local ruler high enough.

How?

Do quests.


ow ow ow, help, my arm's being twisted!

That was literally as complicated as spinning the persuasion wheel a few times. It's the same as having a conversation with someone before getting down to business. In Oblivion, you did not have to do everybody's side quest in Skingrad, then hunt down an illegal drug trade in the sewers before you could buy the mansion. It was a persuasion wheel.

I "escaped the main plot" till level 25 when i wanted to kill some dragons and it wasn't even hard. Its just like in Oblivion where you just don't go in to Weynon Prior if you don't want to do the main quest.

TES games aren't about following a scripted path. They're about taking your own. That's why Todd Howard kept going on about how we're able to be who we wish to be, and play how we wish to play.

'cept it was all just PR [censored].

I disagree.

And how having a logical sequence of events (.aka questline) before reaching your objective (.aka progression or reward) ruins your "do whatever you want" thing?