When I was 13, I played http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_V:_Warriors_of_Destiny. I was 27 when Morrowind was released. So intergenerational conflict indeed. Computer RPGs used to be completely different beasts, until one fateful night in 1996 Blizzard Entertainment killed the genre by releasing Diablo. What they had realized was that you didn't need stats, you didn't need proper character development, plot or even world design. You only needed monsters for people to bash in the hopes of phat lewt, and they'd be happy. That started the trend of everything resembling the pen&paper-inspired stat systems of old getting ripped out from RPGs, and the advent of the ARPG. Daggerfall was released in the same year, and still attempted to simulate a pen&paper RPG, but the damage had already been done. What you needed were "skill trees" and a linear story to excuse the loot pi?ata-action, and we've seen a steady progression to this direction in every RPG released since Diablo.

Some of us still lust after the RPGs of old, where men were stats, and the walls were pixelated. Bethesda deserves a lot of praise for bucking the trend of increasing simplification of cRPGs, but they still haven't been immune to this, and many of us don't exactly like the fact.

ETA: Got Daggerfall's release year wrong.

If you think so, you should be concerned with such ideas as game dumbed for kids but themed as advlt, cod is a good example. Parents dont seem to understand, my friend manages a branch of game uk and feels its futile trying to impose age rating, hes had alot of arguements with customers over game ratings, as alot of middle aged women apparently play cod...when the real people loosing out arnt the kids whos mum bought it but the people around 18 that want to for them selves get id'd and fail.
Violence sells to all ages of video gamers, but the same children that love action may not appreachate reading and dialougue, so when such things take heavy hits incomparison you wonder why. Personaly i dont think most people would be hurt by the kind of 'advlt themes' you find in alot of games, when i was younger things may have been less graphic but exsposure to advlt themes all the same didnt do me to much harm. I do care how ever when a product is aim at an advlt auidence and i care about that produce and pay and support the makers of these products for a long time to then see the elements that are really deep and advlt in nature stripped away in place of simplistity and action.

*points up to FPSFrame52's post* The difficultly being talked about isn't twitch reflexes. In shooters you point at the enemy and fire. Not difficult at all.

No. My brother is 13 and played it for a while. He played it for a while but simply couldn't get hooked.
Skyrim is pretty much for advlts imo.

You seem to have missed the part of the thread where I was giving out ideas that would make me happier with the game. There's no "restoring happiness". Skyrim is a perfectly decent game, with lots of both realised and missed potential. It is what we have now, and there really aren't any other options if you want a decent single-player RPG.


I've been addressing both groups in the thread, in case you haven't noticed. I don't see there having much point in spending too much energy talking at the people who jump into threads like this and issue a blanket judgement of "whiners". They've already made up their minds, and I'd rather spend my energy on something more constructive than us yelling into eachother's mouths.

People complained in Oblivion about there not being any puzzles then they put puzzles in and people still complain, now that they arn't complex enough.... I don't think Bethesda can win! There are at least some variables to the puzzle, yes the end result is matching symbols in some form, however I ran into a dungeon the other day where I was stuck, I found the rods with symbols but no way of knowing which should be what! Then I noticed a book on a nearby table, in the table it mentioned a story of some lacky meeting his maker and there inlied the words to the symbols! Maybe not completely original but would you prefer Oblivions complete lack of any Puzzle instead?

I agree for the most part about the maturity 'feel' of the game, not sure how it received a Mature rating here in Australia, maybe for the combat and blood on the sword, decapitations etc but not for the dialogue or anything else suggestive.

Hate to use this as an example because they are different games even if similar genre, but if you play Witcher 2 you can tell that it is aimed at an older audience, the dialogue is much more mature, certain scenes are ALOT more mature as those who have played will know but the overall feel of the game is that which you would expect in an advlt RPG, this makes the game more realistic and quite refreshing actually ! In Skyrim I am not 'frightened' to look around even though I love to explore, in Witcher I am too scared to go around the next forest bend because I know I am going to be set apon and probably die again!

Don't get me wrong I love Skyrim and have played all the TES series games going back to Arena in 94 but some more mature features would set Skyrim off!

Videogame age ratings aren't based on perceived difficulty. Thought that was obvious.

Of which.. 25 are new and original?
And no I do not count the one sentence pages you find in quests as 'books'.
90% of the books are from previous series.
97% of the good books are from previous series.

What is added, I mean seriously?
There isnt even one single book about that giant floaty city that turned everyone into zombies 160 years ago.

You know what I would like?
A game that has 18+ on the box being aimed at 18+
That would mean the real Barenziah Daggerfall had.
It does not mean the hurdy-gurdy har-har of the 14 year old boy we see in Oblivion an Skyrim. Oo nipbles.

Please don't hate me, but I liked Diablo. Mostly for it's co-op multiplayer, but still.

I guess the RPGs I grew up with were Morrowind, the D&D inspired games (Baldurs Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights etc.), Gothic 2, just to name the good ones (and the ones I still remember, without mentioning all the great hybrids like Jagged Alliance 2 or Silent Storm and others). Planescape: Torment I merely discovered some years ago.
Once good RPGs (and games in general) started to decline (I'd say around 2003), I went off to play rougelikes and indie games.

Honestly, I don't mind a linear story, as long as it's well told.
While I'm not a great fan of JRPG, there's one that impressed me recently, namely Xenoblade: Chronicles.
There may have been similar stories, but that one is simply well told.

Anyway, I think a person your age makes an interesting addition to this forum.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way. It's meant as a compliment.

the lusty argonian maid v2

difficulty was not the main point of the thread, difficulty related to rating is off topic, maturity of content, mainly dialogue and the acompanying text. Check the post above yours. Difficulty just shows its open to a wide audience not just a young audience. The need for more than the odd thought process oe the puzzles would tho could help to off set the other issues.

Assassin's Creed 2 had some pretty good IQ test type puzzles, which I was surprised to find as it's ostensibly an action platformer. They were all entirely optional but added detail to the plot if solved - and some the later ones were actually pretty challenging for the old grey matter (for mine anyway!) and rewarding to solve. Half-Life 2 had some great physics based puzzles which mixed up the gameplay nicely (e.g. pile up bricks to get a see-saw to to the exit).

My fantasy scenario would be they get someone like George RR Martin or Neil Gaiman to write for a game. It would cost them a pretty penny to do so however.

Yah, I know.
It kinda proves my point doesnt it?
Where is the new King Edward, where is the new Barenziah?

I guess you're right...there's not enough nipbles in Skyrim.

Like I said go play Witcher 2 if you want more 'advlt' content and a more mature RPG feel, its as though Bondai thumbed their noses at the more immature RPG's out on the market, it gives the game a whole different 'feel'.

I haven't played Witcher 2 yet, I've heard good things about it and I've seen it's coming to consoles so maybe in the future. The game I played within the last year or so that stood out to me on the mature writing dealing with advlt issues was LA Noire. The game had flaws but it's characterization and dialogue was pretty good.

Yeah I agree LA Noire was fantastic at providing a certain atmosphere that kept you on edge, I guess the ultra-realistic facial animations and acting didn't hurt either but it was more the quality of the dialogue and the way it was produced!

Witcher 2's dialogue is similar in this way, it doesn't 'hold your hand' and cutscene's add to the whole feel, put it this way, I wouldn't let my 8 year old nephew play W2 I can't go into particulars but Skyrim wouldn't suffer too much with some of these additions, sales alone shouldn't be Bethesda's primary concern, rather producing the game that they want to should be!

Ratings are not set by the gaming companies, they are set by http://www.esrb.org and not until the game is complete and they had their hands on it to test.

We don't expect Skyrim to be perfect. We expect it to be better than the previous games, and in terms of dialogue, it's a piece of [censored] compared to Morrowind.

If you have a 2005 Hyundai Sonata and you buy a 2011 Hyundai Sonata, wouldn't you expect the 2011 to actually be better in nearly every aspect than the 2005? I don't see why anyone wouldn't..

Lets hope dlc helps adress these issues, but id be nuts to buy fo 4 if its as immiture as this lil outting. The real gritty skyrim is burryed deep down, hopefully it can resurface.

You raise good complaints (that most of us here are aware of and agree upon), but I do NOT think that they exist because Bethesda is targeting a younger audience.

I agree.

The rating is only because of things like gore in the game.
The gameplay is mostly just action, nothing hardcoe or intellectual. Non-stop action without much brain use sells games these days.

I'd want there to be more intellectual stuff in a RPG, especially if I roleplay a wise mage. Speech should also be used more often instead of being forced to fight.


Edit: Morrowind was like a good book. Skyrim is like an action movie.

I wouldn't really make this an "age" thing, to be honest, as if everyone above 18 suddenly is a universe's secrets revealing genius admiring complex literature and writing poetry or something. I'd say trying to make this appeal to a broader audience includes advlts as well, just different taste in games - won't get into the whole "dumbed down" discussion, though, it's not like everyone who likes, for instance, a fast-paced FPS game is just too stupid to read a textbook.

Another thing I'd like to comment on is the age rating mentioned. As far as I'm informed, it's mainly about violence, nudity ect. and not about how mature or complex a game actually is or what age group would enjoy the game.

At the topic at hand, yes, there could've been more complexity and so on. Especially the "puzzles" are kind of insultingly easy. I don't miss repairing, though, never added anything but an annoyance to the games for me. It was nothing but "open menu and press button" from time to time anyways.

The game isn't aimed at children - end of story.

How is the game aimed at children? Just look at the sheer number of stats at who is playing it. Children want a game you just run around and shoot / slash & jump. Not level up, characters choice, make weapons and spells, join guilds, involve themselves with politics etc

Cutting the heads off of enemies etc is also hardly what I'd say is aiming at children.

This thread is pointless