(Spoiler alert for those who haven't finished the main quest.)

Those of you familiar with Star Trek lore may recall the Kobayashi Maru test given to aspiring commanders during their training at Star Fleet Command. For those of you who aren't, it is a battle simulation designed to test behavior in a "no win scenario." More on this later.

After spending a few hundred hours on this game and finishing the main quest line, after listening to an incredible musical score and seeing some of the most amazing scenery ever produced in a video game, I felt as if I had been given a no win scenario regarding Paarthurnax and Esbern (ie, The Blades). So much so that it has really jilted my opinion of the game. Logically speaking, as Dragonborn and the rest of humanity had been given a great gift by the old dragon, Esbern's cold reaction just doesn't make sense. Even worse, the fact that Dragonborn has no input on the matter despite having fulfilled prophecies thousands of years old...well, again, there's no logic to it. Ultimately, the blame has to be based on the writers and in this case they simply fail at creating an opportunity to make the story believable and rich. I'm not alone in this sentiment. I've read some interesting opine's on the subject from around the net with my favorite here: http://skyrim.mmo-game.eu/paarthurnax-or-blades/.

The Paarthurnax vs The Blades scenario is a symptom (albeit the most obvious) of a problem that Bethesda needs to overcome. For their games to evolve they must find a way to construct a game that allows for more fluidity, continuity and consequence. If I am the Arch Mage, I should not be told what to do by underlings. If I am the Thieve's Guild Master then I shouldn't be threatened by my minions. If I fight for the Stormcloaks there should be consequences for my actions when I meet Imperials or enter towns loyal to The Empire. I realize that there are financial issues involved with such construction, not the least of which is paying for more lines of dialogue. Regardless, to achieve the degree of believability that would take this game to the next level, Bethesda's writing needs to improve. (Again, for more opinion from someone smarter than I: http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2011/12/22/why-skyrim-is-not-my-game-of-the-year/.)

So, back to the Kobayashi Maru. As you probably recall, Captain Kirk was the only person to actually beat the scenario by sneaking into the control room and reprogramming the computers the night before. Here's to hoping that someone (whether modders or Bethesda via DLC) will sneak into the control room and reprogram the computers because I, like Captain Kirk, don't believe there is such a thing as a no win scenario.

Ahem. The true no-win scenario is the fact that Delphine is marked essential so you can't kill the girldog.

no-win? siding with the blades is losing, since they are just an old idiot (with delusions of dragon slaying people from akavir) and a **** using him to further her own goals

heh, I hear you. I hit her and Esbern with some fus and blew them off the mountaintop. They eventually found their way back to Sky Haven, though.

You didnt really earn the right to lead. They just call you leader because you are special.

I understand what you're saying.

But you must also consider that real people do not always act logically and do the right thing. Esbern is convinced of a course of action. So it flies in the face of what you are given to believe about the Blades in some ways. So it goes against what this man should do in your view.

But Esbern does what he wants, not what you want.

Where is it written that everything must fall into a neat orderly logic? Where is it written that any hero must be surrounded by tried and true allies that would support the hero no matter what? Where is it written that every ally of the hero cannot have their own opinions or secret agendas? Skyrim has more than a few themes in which all is not as it seems or as you would like it. There has been a conscious attempt at blurring some of the lines that make a clear path for the player. There are some difficult decisions for the player that wants to make moral choices in this game.

Esbern doesn't react how you want him to. He throws you a curveball. Thank God, in my opinion. It is so much better than the "I saw this coming a million miles away" character personalities we have seen over and over time and time again. Esbern has his own motivations and goals. He's more than the standard two-dimesional 'mentor' in these games and I say: well done.

In your 'Kobayashi maru' example, you are more correct than you know, I think. Kirk was given a situation on purpose. But you feel that in Skyrim, you were given a situation by accident due to poor design. I don't think it was an accident. I think it was according to what they had in store for you. You are closer to the reality of it than you know, in my opinion

This svcks, I dont want to kill Paarthurnax. He speaks to me as an equal. Damn bethesda wth?

You do NOT have to kill Paarturnax.

This is definately not "no-win". It's write your own. And it's a major spoiler, so shame on you. There's a sticky that says "No spoilers".

@Halthor, I also dont want to kill the blades. They have proven useful. Servants are always needed, and if they ever outgrow their utility. Then the void has a place for them. ALL HAIL SITHIS!!! But yeah i dont wish to kill either and I want to have both get along.

You got to be "special" to lead in this game!

I posted a rather lengthy response to a similar topic http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1318881-blades-or-greybeards/page__view__findpost__p__19828554.

In this case it's one or the other. One group's goals are opposed to your own. You have to choose- do what they want, or do what you think is right.

On my first play-through, I played a Nord that put every choice to the "do what others want or do what you think is right at this moment" test to everything and it was an interesting role-play. I ended up abandoning the Blades. And, indeed, Ermenrich (my Nord) wanted to kill Delphine and Esbern, as he viewed them as faithless liars, as well as arrogant manipulators. They would be nowhere without Ermenrich, or dead. But they gave him ultimatums? Ultimatums concerning things they can have no real knowledge of, things outside their existence? And they turn him out of their new sanctuary, a place he led them to, an inaccesible place that they could not find or enter on their own?

I saved the game (I figured they would be essentials), and did my best to send them both to the underworld, where the deceitful roast alive for the amusemant of demons in the employ of Hel, for all time

The solutions easy, Kill Paarthurax, that pretty much guarantees that he won't ever enslave humans again if he strays from his beliefs.

I knew from the beginning I was never going to kill paarthurnax, at least for my good character, and I doubt even my bad character would want to do anything for the blades, so that's the "no win" for me, I was seriously disappointed it gets left hanging if you do nothing.

PS, if Delphine was not invincible I'd have taken her to meet paarthunax in person, and say you do it!

Seems similar to what Ravern Black Talon will do to them. Going to ice form them to death they will make pretty statues.

(Ravern Black Talon is my nord Dovah.)

After speaking with paarthurnax, he was right about one thing, being born good is easy.

That is one of the best moments of the game in my opinion

The guild thing isn't even a giant effort.

Instead of ordering you on missions, your subordinates bring you options to pursue (Oblivion even had this, sort of, with the Fighters Guild). You pick missions, and if you want, you can opt to lead them for greater profit/success rate/reknown (okay this would require a fame system again) or let your subordinates do it.

More or less like the Assassin Missions in AC:Revelation, except within the gameworld and with you able to take a personal hand.

um... the point of the kobayashi maru was to test how you handled it. there is no way to handle that quest because you either do it or you dont. the whole test hinges on just how exactly you dont, but with skyrim there is only one way to fail; just do nothing. all it tests is whether you feel like being a crazy murderer or... not being a crazy murderer.

But of course, the parallel isn't present in that regard, because in Skyrim, it's not a test to see how you handle something at all. It's a 'do it or don't' choice, not a thing that evaluates your motives actions and how you deal with leadership in the event.

The anology doesn't bear close examination on that point

anyone remember Delphine saying how she just knew the Thalmor were behind dragons ... delusional and crazy. no way i'm killing Paart not while crazy and stupid around me are trying to force me all the time to do the work for them

The blades want to wipe out an entire species, The Greybeards want to learn from said species. I don't see it as no-win.

I should be able to kill anyone i desire - truly essential NPC's piss me off. I should be able to screw up the war by gutting Ulfric Stormcloak like the pig he is or deposing of that incompetant king in solitude (not that she wasn't right that one time, it's just the other 99 times her rash action would have proven unjustified)

Also wyatt, sometimes xenocide is hard to see in a bad way. If someone were to wipe deer ticks from the face of the earth, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I did earn the right to lead when I cut myself open, giving my own blood so they could gain access to Sky Haven Temple. Without me, they wouldn't even have their ramshackle mountain base.