Perks worked well in Fallout, but in Skyrim were done extremely poorly. The trees are one reason. Having to create several perks for each skill really doesn't work considering they vary so much in complexity. Lockpicking didn't need 10 perks dedicated to it, and the one that makes picks unbreakable makes most of them obsolete. The novice->adept and so on design doesn't work at all for lockpicking either, as lower level locks are already easy. Sinking that many perks into the tree for master or unbreakable is a total waste not to mention when you've got 100 lockpicking you're probably drowning in lockpicks anyway. The perks that might actually be worth taking are buried in useless perks for a skill that just didn't need that many perks dedicated to it begin with. Same can be said for pickpocket, or speech.

They tried to make all skills roughly equal but they're just not. Speech, lockpicking, pickpocket shouldn't be treated like combat skills and neither should crafting skills.

I really hope they get rid of the novice, apprentice, adept style perks in the next TES. I mentioned they don't work for lockpicking, but on second thought, they don't work for anything. These were completely unnecessary not to mention unimaginative. It's like they tried to make perks do too much of what skills themselves were supposed to do, rather than being actual perks.

Take a look at Fallout perks -

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_3_perks
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_perks

There are some duds, sure. But look at how many don't even relate to a specific skill and are solely for improving or giving RP options for your character. Also note that some give major bonuses outside of combat for just one perk so that they're actually worth taking over a combat perk. They're also just generally more interesting and less restricted than Skyrim's perks. This is how they should've designed Skyrim's perks.

Well I wouldn't look at fallout perks, because skyrims perks are more close to oblivions perks http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Skill_Perks

Buuuut, that doesn't change the fact that, yes, some of the perks are pointless.

I like it.

Your thread title is really, really bad.

I disagree with everything the OP said, I find it simply amazing and fluid, and the perks make sense and have purpose.

This thread is really, really bad.

I would look at Fallout perks because Fallout did perks better, that's kind of the point I'm making. I'm not trying to compare the closest thing to Skyrim's perks.

Fallouts perks weren't tied to individual skills, so that is why looking at oblivions perks is better than looking at fallout's perks.

I agree with the poster. The prerequisites often don't make much sense. You end up buying some perks merely to get the one you actually want further up the tree. Smithing is ok, but Heavy Armor seems particularly difficult to understand why some are prerequisites of others.

Were I able to suggest an improvement, I'd make many of the perks automatic based on a given skill level and then leave a few in each tree which you could pick, none of which had prerequisities. At the least it would make the trees much smaller.

I would also suggest the ability to retrain -- to remove a perk that turns out to be useless (some are even counterproductive once you try it) and allow you to reselect your perks. Maybe this could be allowed on a limited basis -- one reallocated perk per 5 levels or something.

That is what I'd like for the NEXT game anyway.

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Really? Being able to negate the weight of both Light and Heavy Armor have a sense and purpose? By sense and purpose you mean that they completely cancel out any negatives that picking that Armor had, right?

Why is there a Master Lockpicking perk when a perk before it makes lockpicks unbreakable?

Just a little funny thing I noticed the thread below this one is about how Fallout had to much of an impact on this game lol.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Widow/
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_Killer 2 1 +10% damage to the opposite six, and unique dialogue options with certain characters
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Swift_Learner 2 http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/IN 4 3
+10% XP whenever XP is earned
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Intense_Training 2 10 +1 to any http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/SPECIAL stat
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Child_at_Heart 4 http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/CH 4 1 Unlocks many unique dialogue options with children
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Comprehension 4 http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/IN 4 1
+1 additional skill point whenever a skill book is read

Those are just a few examples. It'd be impossible to add these to a skill, other than the child at heart into speech.

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Yes, really. Makes sense to me. Open your mind and stop being so critical.

That's the point of the thread - tying perks to skills so strictly is one of the main things I'm criticizing Skyrim's perk system for doing and one of the reasons I'm claiming Fallout's is better.
I'm not sure if you didn't read the OP or misread or are just confused or? I'm not saying Fallout's system is most similar to Skyrim's system, I'm saying it's better.

It makes sense to you...

You pick Light Armor so you can run faster, move quieter, but can't take as much damage.

You pick Heavy Armor so you can take much more damage, but you can't run faster or move quieter.

I take a Perk in Heavy Armor that makes Heavy Armor Weightless, so I can run fine and not be burdened.

What's the point of ever picking Light Armor if I can make Heavy Armor just as light as Light Armor with the same, or better, protection?

In that case, I disagree with you. I like they way perks are tied to a skill, instead of just being around like in fallout. I prefer it they way it is in a fallout game, but in a TES game I'd rather see the perks tied to skills. Otherwise we might as well tie vampirism to a perk.

Perks don't work because they don't belong in TES. Perks belong in Fallout. TES needs to get back to major and minor skills and birthsigns and attributes and all the things they removed so they could just steal crap from Fallout 3 and simplify their job instead of actually making things in TES work.

Perks and Perk trees do not belong in TES.

I was expecting interesting perks like in Fallout 3... instead we simply got any and all meaning of skills ripped out of the skill levels themselves and stuffed into perks. There are a few interesting perks, yes, but a lot of them aren't even "perks"... they're necessities and practically the skills themselves, nothing really interesting. As the OP mentioned some skills are just useless with useless perks, it seems... and then smithing... what kind of pathetic "perk" tree is that? It fully demonstrates what I'm talking about in terms of being unexciting (oh yay, get to craft the same-looking crap already littering the gameworld) and the importance of skill levels themselves being of no real importance (you need to get the "perks" to do anything with that whole skill). Bethesda, please revert to Daggerfall-style leveling system. Add a few real "perks" to that if you wish, but as it stands, these "perks" are trite and practically the only actual character progression in the game, which is awfully pitiful for "perks" and any RPG (perks being among the only actual progression, Skyrim is barely any more of an RPG than Dead Island or even with only "perks" presenting progression beyond equipment.

They really are badly designed and boring, they simply lack flavor. I mean, you can literally take a quick look at them, and immediately tell what's worth getting and what isn't, the pre-requisite of perks being set up so that you need to tag sub-optimal choices is merely padding it out to make it seem like there is more to it than there is.

i like the system fine, i think its pretty cool. there's a couple hundred perks and you get to choose the ones you want and it defines your character.

The main problem with perks is the abundance of filler "+% skill performance" perks which are garbage. Performance of a skill should be governed by level of that skill and (almost) nothing else. Shifting the weight towards the performance perks feels artificial and bloated, and make the skills not scale well with level(for example the last 19 points in One-handed/Two-handed do almost nothing damage-wise because at that point you have 5/5 Armsman/Barbarian anyway).

Uh, serious question? It's called choice in an RPG. What is this, World of Warcraft? Why are you insinuating people min/max in a single player rpg? Its called rp and choice. There doesn't have no always be a point to choice; the fact that there is a choice is the point.
I swear, it's like all the fans of this series suddenly turned into CoD/WoW fans.

Alchemy, I believe, and some of Enchanting, did the Crafting Perks well. Perks like the ability to gain an additional wild ingredient when picked are nice, as is the Perk to gain 5% of the Soul Trapped recharged to your weapon.

Smithing, on the other hand, should have been recipe based like Alchemy. Instead better smithing gear is basically just handed to you.



Lol and in saying this you're describing yourself as not a very big RPG fan.

You mention choice. In an RPG, choices are supposed to have weight to them, that's why they are a choice to begin with. Answer the question; what's the point in picking Heavy Armor if you can use Perks to make Light Armor as strong as Heavy? What's the point in picking Light Armor if you can use Perks to make Heavy Armor just as light as Light Armor? Where is the weight of the choice in this RPG?

This is one of the stupidest things I ever read.

Choices without consequences are meaningless and completely pointless.

What in Talos' name are you talking about? The complaint is that the game renders any choice utterly pointless and consequence (in other words, unique circumstances and reactions) doesn't exist there with a perk removing the only differences between, in this case, two separate armor classes. A purely aesthetic choice at the core of a supposed RPG isn't really much of an RPG choice, now is it? Essentially, the choice without any of the consequence is effectively no better than anything in WoW (don't know much about it, but I'll quote your word on it) or CoD.