Skyrim's perks and perk tree designs are just really, really : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:37 am

Then let's turn it around, to get Conditioning you need to waste points on two worthless perks :tongue:

Then those two worthless perks are the price you pay to get that perk you want. :tongue:

And before the obvious comeback: if you don't like being force-fed junk to get what you want, then you wouldn't be playing a game where you have to use iron weapons before you can get that Daedric sword you crave. :biggrin:

What I really wanted out of the perks was less junk. I'd be fine with the whole thing if 80% of the perks were not stuff like "do X more damage with X weapon" or "persuasion checks are X more successful." Take a look at what Obsidian did with the perks in New Vegas. That is what I would prefer: perks that are well thought out and unique.

Give me that filler drivel as a reward for actually advancing the skill instead. Don't have me wasting an already scarce perk point on it. Although perk points really wouldn't be that scarce anymore if we started doing that now, would they.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:47 am

I know. I didn't think that post out much. :blush:

Wow. This is best answer I have seen in a while here. You have my respect, sir.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:35 am

The problem with this argument is that there are other perks beyond the Conditioning that you might want and will be unable to get without getting Conditioning first.

If the choice is you have to take "fluff" perks to get one you want, then you have a choice to make. Even a large number of fallout perks required prerequisites to get. For example, I don't like that I have to choose, in the sneak tree, not setting off floor based traps to get to "Silent Running". That then is my choice. Do I or don't I?

The choices are meaningful for your character.

Of course, if you're on the PC and complaining about "fluff" perks, you can just remove them from your character at will, so I see no need for PC players to complain about these.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:25 pm

I'd just like to point out that these perks are not meaningless in any way. Rather, they are the most meaningful choices you can make in the game, as they directly affect how your avatar interacts with the game world. Rather than some cosmetic choices as to what tend to be minor interactions among NPCs, the choices you make affect your whole gaming experience. They define your character; the very essence of role playing! I would even go so far as to say they're more important than attributes.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:26 pm

I'd just like to point out that these perks are not meaningless in any way. Rather, they are the most meaningful choices you can make in the game, as they directly affect how your avatar interacts with the game world. Rather than some cosmetic choices as to what tend to be minor interactions among NPCs, the choices you make affect your whole gaming experience. They define your character; the very essence of role playing! I would even go so far as to say they're more important than attributes.

Well, think of it this way: as it stands, I receive no direct incentive to favor certain skills as I progress, and certain perks would be fairly easy to implement into the skill advancement so that actually training up your skill means something. Think of it as your character learning how to be more efficient and productive with the skill. Some perks could easily be placed into the "improvement through repetition" department, like, say, every single "can perform X skill X% better" perk (the guys at the bottom of the trees).

Passively assigning bonuses which really should have been that way to begin with to give the player a little extra push to specialize in specific skills and further reinforce the roleplay. Specialization perks would still require perk points.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:37 am

I am in total agreement with the OP on this one.

Why is it a good thing for it to be tied to skills. I don't mind skill requirements for perks that are logically tied to a skill, but making them tied to skills as its basic format really limits perk design and the trees limit it even further since it disregards the possibility of perks that are tied or related to multiple skills. I mean while yeah a bleeding perk might be logically tied to axes so might require a one or two handed skill of 25 but if it were not tied to an individual skill it could be an or situation instead of having to take the same perk twice for both skills, and a perk like extra pockets if renamed why would it need to be tied to any skill, and wouldn't a passive resist to elements work if tied to both destruction and a defense skill like heavy armor.

Because that's how I like them in an elder scrolls. I have no deeper philosophical answer than that, but still I know there's many who agree with me.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:57 am

I did lose 15 to 20 lockpicks on a master lock today, and I drank a 18% boost to lockp;icking potion before I actually found the sweet spot. picks break instantly on that lock if you aren't careful.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:28 am

I hope TES6 has no perks at all.
Except like in Oblivion, abilities that advancing in the skill unlock.
Perks as they are now devalue a skill.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:18 am

I'm still trying to understand the reasoning of having an unarmed perk in the heavy armor skill tree, or having a whole set of perk and a skill tree only for lockpicking...

IMO, I think there was some major messed up stuff during the development of this game, maybe they ran out of time? kinda strange though, wouldn't creating the gameplay mecanics of the game be more easier and shorter than crafting and modeling the whole world?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:54 am

People want choices, but then complain they don't like the choices when they pick perks.

Good one. I lol'ed hard.

There's nothing unreasonable about that, bad choices are bad choices. If someone told me I had a choice of where to eat, then told me my choices were taco bell, mcdonalds, or kfc I'd be pretty disappointed. I like having a choice, but I don't like the choices I've been presented with and I don't think you could blame me.

Of course, if you're on the PC and complaining about "fluff" perks, you can just remove them from your character at will, so I see no need for PC players to complain about these.

This is a total cop out, just because we can potentially change things on the PC doesn't mean we shouldn't complain that it was designed poorly in the first place and had to be fixed.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:29 am

Yea, the lockpicking skill tree is one of the most redundant; im betting they needed to have the same number of skill trees for each class (warrior mage rogue), so they made this lockpicking tree crap. Same with pickpocket; although maybe not so much, the perk for pickpocketing equipped items is quite fun.
Neutral on speech though, at least the "sell items to any vendor" is quite useful, no more cursing the useless alchemist who doesnt buy weapons

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:24 pm

(text)

Well, confronted with this gross exaggeration and lack of insight I would like to print something similar of my own, only from the inverse of the spectrum:

"If Bethesda shipped people a brick, there are those who would claim its the best brick they ever played."

Mindless praise is valueless.
Constructive criticism is helpful.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:52 am

While I understand what the OP is saying. I disagree in the sense that, Skyrim is about making your character into something unique...so if you want your guy to be a master lock-picker then you focus perks points on that and if you want them to be a two handed bad-ass then you focus perk points on that. But if you want them to be well rounded, you put points in various skills.

It is kinda dumb cause lockpicking, pick-pocketing and sneak are all in the same "class". But by separating them you have the option to dedicate points to other things.

I will only say this, which is all I need to say....if you get your level up high enough - (I'm a 75) - you can put as many points into whatever you want whenever you want and you have so much power at level 75....none of it matters....

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:24 am

Well, confronted with this gross exaggeration and lack of insight I would like to print something similar of my own, only from the inverse of the spectrum:

"If Bethesda shipped people a brick, there are those who would claim its the best brick they ever played."

Mindless praise is valueless.
Constructive criticism is helpful.

PC users can change the content of the brick so I don't see why they're complaining!

Spoiler

no, I'm not saying Skyrim is a brick/is that bad, it just has untapped potential(the amazing game world) that's sad to see wasted(poor combat/shallow gameplay).

While I understand what the OP is saying. I disagree in the sense that, Skyrim is about making your character into something unique...so if you want your guy to be a master lock-picker then you focus perks points on that and if you want them to be a two handed bad-ass then you focus perk points on that. But if you want them to be well rounded, you put points in various skills.

It is kinda dumb cause lockpicking, pick-pocketing and sneak are all in the same "class". But by separating them you have the option to dedicate points to other things.

I will only say this, which is all I need to say....if you get your level up high enough - (I'm a 75) - you can put as many points into whatever you want whenever you want and you have so much power at level 75....none of it matters....

Doesn't your last point kind of nullify the first?

I understand what you're saying - the perks partly play a role in preventing "master of all trades" characters and that's a good thing, but they could do it without being boring and function more like skills than perks. Really, if they wanted to prevent master of all trades characters, they could limit skills - they'd have to switch to a more standard XP system though otherwise the game would devolve into micro managing skills to get your desired results much like Oblivion. Wouldn't want people stuck in conundrums like "I can't level speech or I'll lose levels out of something else."

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:05 am

Passively assigning bonuses which really should have been that way to begin with to give the player a little extra push to specialize in specific skills and further reinforce the roleplay. Specialization perks would still require perk points.

Having certain value bonuses in the perk trees increases the need for specialization. If they used the system you suggested, players would all end up identically proficient in every skill with the exception of minor utility that perks provide. In the end, you'd still end up doing the same damage with a sword that a one-handed specialist does when playing as a mage character. Having the damage bonuses there makes sense and allows for unique skill builds to have a purpose besides "my sneak specialized character doesn't set off pressure plates, ooh, so much better than that warrior who is just as effective at not getting detected but does set off pressure plates if he walks on them".

Also, this is a TES forum. Why are there people insisting on game mechanics that shoehorn the player into certain playstyles? Elder Scrolls is all about being able to do whatever you want.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:04 am

*sigh*

No, you just want to complain. That's all this forum is. Even positive topics are quickly swamped by negativity and petty sniping.

Some people wouldn't be happy if they were crapping diamonds. Take, for example, they guy who didn't like the perk to make heavy armour weightless... he thinks it's stupid, and I happen to agree with him. I personally find it ridiculous. So I don't pick it. I make a choice, and then, that choice has in-game consequences, which I then have to contend with. See how it works?

Haplf the complainers in here have also complained that their RPG isn't "number-based" enough, yet half the perks are full of numbers. Numbers numbers everywhere. Increase damage by 20%, 40%, 100%. 30% chance of critical hit. But noooooo, apparently these aren't "good" numbers, but "filler".

Does the perk system have its problems? Yes. Lockpicking and speech are, from a purely empirical results POV, useless. But they do fit nicely into a role playing scenario. But noooooo, it's not role playing enough, apparently, because of the numbers, or the phase of the moon, or the tides, or the fact that some people are recidivist complainers who would complain about being given a Ferrari because of the price of gas.

Largely though, I've found the perks to be a good way to build different characters, with different strengths, who can do very different things. I give perks an A-.

Mostly agree with the above but, the first sentence sums this forum up perfectly. So many people just whinge, whinge, whinge. If Skyrim is so bad, play something else, a large group of whingers would fit in perfectly with the World of Warcraft community.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:06 pm

"Alright guys, let's think up some perks for the Light armor skill. The Light armor skill itself increases the effectiveness of your armor rating, now what perks would go well with such a skill?"
"How about a perk to increase the Light Armor effectiveness even morerer?"
"Brilliant. Get right on that Jenkins. Anyone else?"
"How about a perk to increase the Light armor effectiveness even morerer, but it requires you to be wearing only light armor?"
"Also good! Get on it Thompson. Who's next?"
"UHHHHH how about a perk that makes LA morerer effective but the set has to be a matching set?"
"Remarkable! These perks are great! I see a big promotion in store for all of you."

Good [censored] game, Bethesda.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:57 pm

Also, this is a TES forum. Why are there people insisting on game mechanics that shoehorn the player into certain playstyles? Elder Scrolls is all about being able to do whatever you want.

But TES isn't about making characters that can be everything at once. Or at least shouldn't be. Perhaps others disagree, but generally people seem to agree they want a character that's somewhat defined by the choices they make.
That's perhaps achieved by the current perk system at least at early levels, but it was achieved in Fallout with more interesting choices. A melee character in Fallout would still choose dramatically different perks than a Gun character who'd choose different perks than an energy weapon character. But you also had perks that defined your character as good or evil, diplomatic or brutish, etc. etc. because the perks didn't have to be strictly related to a certain skill.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:01 pm

Mostly agree with the above but, the first sentence sums this forum up perfectly. So many people just whinge, whinge, whinge. If Skyrim is so bad, play something else, a large group of whingers would fit in perfectly with the World of Warcraft community.

Never crossed your mind that people may think that Skryrim is good enough but could have been much better? guess not.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:32 pm

But TES isn't about making characters that can be everything at once. Or at least shouldn't be.

Oh, I didn't realize you were the lead developer of the TES franchise. I'm sorry, you're clearly the one who should be making the design decisions, and not Bethesda.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:24 am

Oh, I didn't realize you were the lead developer of the TES franchise. I'm sorry, you're clearly the one who should be making the design decisions, and not Bethesda.

This boils down to "Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man." A pretty obvious and unnecessary statement which adds nothing to the conversation and has no validity as an argument. As much as I like the dude.

Haplf the complainers in here have also complained that their RPG isn't "number-based" enough, yet half the perks are full of numbers. Numbers numbers everywhere. Increase damage by 20%, 40%, 100%. 30% chance of critical hit. But noooooo, apparently these aren't "good" numbers, but "filler".

You're lumping everyone who makes a criticism/ complaint together and calling the group hypocritical, this is ridiculous. It's obvious different people have different preferences.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:48 am

Having certain value bonuses in the perk trees increases the need for specialization. If they used the system you suggested, players would all end up identically proficient in every skill with the exception of minor utility that perks provide. In the end, you'd still end up doing the same damage with a sword that a one-handed specialist does when playing as a mage character. Having the damage bonuses there makes sense and allows for unique skill builds to have a purpose besides "my sneak specialized character doesn't set off pressure plates, ooh, so much better than that warrior who is just as effective at not getting detected but does set off pressure plates if he walks on them".

Also, this is a TES forum. Why are there people insisting on game mechanics that shoehorn the player into certain playstyles? Elder Scrolls is all about being able to do whatever you want.

Not exactly. Go back to a system where you pick Major & Minor skills from the get-go. Players still have access to all of the skills, but only the Major/Minor skills will get the modifier bonuses as those are your specialties. I think this fixes two issues, one being you do not get a sense of your character until late into the game, and two this frees up room for more interesting Perk selecitons that give you new abilities or spells, rather than stuff like Armsman where you increase your One-Hand damage by 20% per rank. This makes each level more meaningful.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:11 am

More general pro/cons at character creation would be nice though.

I'd say

Race
Appearance
Birthsign
Traits
Deity(optional)

Would be a pretty solid starting character creation.

Personally, I'd like it if they brought back Daggerfall's character creation. The most fun I've ever had making a character in TES. All those skills to choose from, advantages/disadvantages, balancing the strength of your class and how much hp you get per level vs how quickly your skills level, the questions about your background after you made your character.

Some people wouldn't be happy if they were crapping diamonds.

Well duh. Do you realize how much that would hurt? You'd most likely quickly die from internal hemorrhaging if you did that. And while the perks in Skyrim probably won't cause internal hemorrhaging, they are nearly as bad. Choice means little when you have to choose stuff that should be part of the skill in the first place! Would you be defending Beth giving us choices if they gave us "Cake or Death" as a choice as well? Hey, so long as you can choose right?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:42 am

Not exactly. Go back to a system where you pick Major & Minor skills from the get-go. Players still have access to all of the skills, but only the Major/Minor skills will get the modifier bonuses as those are your specialties. I think this fixes two issues, one being you do not get a sense of your character until late into the game, and two this frees up room for more interesting Perk selecitons that give you new abilities or spells, rather than stuff like Armsman where you increase your One-Hand damage by 20% per rank. This makes each level more meaningful.

Something like this would work for me. They said they wanted characters to start out less defined but I definitely prefer to have something more than what we've got at the beginning.

Starting character creation:
Race
Appearance
Birthsign
Traits (pro/cons like Fallout and other older RPGs)
Deity(optional)

3 major skills, +50% modifiers for them
5 minor skills, +25% modifiers for them

You still have a long way to go but your character isn't an empty canvas entirely.

I think the 100% modifiers are too much.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:10 pm

PC users can change the content of the brick so I don't see why they're complaining!

Spoiler

no, I'm not saying Skyrim is a brick/is that bad, it just has untapped potential(the amazing game world) that's sad to see wasted(poor combat/shallow gameplay).

Doesn't your last point kind of nullify the first?

I understand what you're saying - the perks partly play a role in preventing "master of all trades" characters and that's a good thing, but they could do it without being boring and function more like skills than perks. Really, if they wanted to prevent master of all trades characters, they could limit skills - they'd have to switch to a more standard XP system though otherwise the game would devolve into micro managing skills to get your desired results much like Oblivion. Wouldn't want people stuck in conundrums like "I can't level speech or I'll lose levels out of something else."

I think everybody complaining is complaining about minutia....its not a game breaking thing...if you guys put as much energy into enjoying your 60.00 worth of experience PLAYING games as you do COMPLAINING about games - you would be GREAT video game PLAYERS.....but instead....you are GREAT video game COMPLAINERS.

Its fine to espouse views and complain....but alot of game forum people get extremely passionate about "winning" the argument they will never win. Stop posting here, get on your game, play till your maxed out and have fun being godlike.