Can we all agree that SPECIAL in Fallout 2 worked very well, if not perfectly, and that SPECIAL in Fallout 3 was broken?

Examples of SPECIAL failings in FO3

Charisma - no purpose other than to boost speech and barter skills (ie speech checks, followers allowed were NOT based on charisma). You were better off pumping INT and putting points in Speech than putting any in CHA. For serious players CHA was ALWAYS a 1 at character creation.
Intelligence - ALWAYS a 9 or 10 at character creation. no stat should be THIS mandatory. I think the problem isnt actually with intelligence though - the problem is that other attributes jut were too useless.
Perception - Same thing as charisma - much easier to boost associated skills. Seeing enemies on the map earlier is not a god enough reason to boost Per. Accuracy and overall raned effectiveness (like in FO2) WAS worth it.
Strength - affected h2h damage but not melee weapons? what?

FO 1 and 2 gave you a series of incentives to choose certain attributes over others. FO3 required players to max INT and then dabble around in various other fairly useless attributes.

Your lack of skill does not make the game bad. Besides that, you are woefully misinformed as to the effects of SPECIAL stats in Fallout 3. Please examine the mechanics of the game you dislike as closely as those you enjoy.

I might be missing your point, but it seems as though your point is only how certain aspects of Fallout 3's SPECIAL were more effective in Fallout 2. Fallout 3 wasn't as broken as you are making it out to be.

Can't we all just enjoy the game?

For real. It just seems like a pointless argument. Of course each game is going to emphasize something different.

I'm sure Obsidian won't mess it up.

I know enough about special to know some attributes were useless. Please tell me how Im wrong on Charisma, for example. Original NPC disposition has no real effect on the game, so Charisma is basically useless.

I rather enjoyed Fallout 3 - I was disappointed in many aspects however. So, again - instead of comments like the one above which doesn't help me, please let me know where I am incorrect.

Of course - but I would enjoy it more if certain things were changed. Since this is a forum and the point is for people to express differing opinions, I will continue to do so.

I think I didn't explain myself very well. I want SPECIAL to have an appropriate impact on gameplay and character development decisions. FO3 was too skill focused in my opinion. Attributes counted for very little. For most interactions I like to see a combination of attributes and skills used to calculate the result. A person with no charisma should not be able to effectively argue with the wasteland leaders. A person with no perception (eg blind as a bat) should not be able to shoot a sniper rifle with 100% accuracy. A person with no muscles should not be as effective in barehanded combat as someone with maxed out strength.

I have a mod for FO3 in the works that fixes that. It caps your skills according to your SPECIALs. Have only one perception? Then you have a cap of 20 at Small Guns. When the GECK for NV is released I'll port it over.

If I mind right Charisma did affect your speech check chances over and above what your speech skill was sitting at. So in that regard it isn't completely useless.

Am I seriously the only one that agrees with the OP on this one? I'm sorry but minimal bonuses to skills that you'll invariably have maxed out by end game ALONG WITH EVERY OTHER SKILL is not a proper incentive. And that problem can be traced back to the inherent flaws in Bethesda's interpretation of the SPECIAL system as well! Horrible.

"Invariably"?

To maximize your skills in Fallout 3, even WITH broken steel, you have to either max intelligence and take Educated and Comprehension or search out at least 3/4 of the skill books and the bobbleheads. You have to work at it. I have done the math, so have many other people. If you're not going to be serious about this why talk about it?


FOR YOUR STYLE OF PLAY. IF YOU WANT THE CHARISMA BASED PERKS THIS IS NOT A VALID DECISION

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF WAYS TO HAVE AS MANY SKILL POINTS AS ANYONE ELSE WITH AN INTELLIGENCE AS LOW AS 3. YOUR STYLE OF PLAY IS NOT THE ONLY VALID STYLE. THIS DOES NOT REFLECT ON THE UTLITY OF ANY SPECIAL STAT.

THAT'S YOUR PERSONAL OPINION. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STAT.

IT DIRECTLY AFFECTS MELEE DAMAGE. UNARMED DAMAGE IS AFFECTED BY ENDURANCE.

NOT EVERYONE PLAYS THE WAY YOU DO. NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO. YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS ARE NOT A DAMNING INDICTMENT OF THE FALLOUT 3 SPECIAL SYSTEM

I agree

only 3 of the speical stats were done genrally right

intelligence,luck and strength

the others dident really play much of a role and dident do much(depart from add 8 points to a skill what was all quite easy to get up)

while there is a diffrence between FO1/2 and FO3 and few of the SPEICAL stats on what they do would ahve to be changed (E.G perception in FO1 and 2 had good bonuses on encounters but FO3 being considerbly more diffrent requires it to focus on somethign else though somethings could easily of been put in like chrisma and how it affects how many followers the player can have)

Muggle:

The facts are simple: the realization that you even had the option of maxing all your skills (especially after Todd Howard made it a point to say the game was designed so you COULDN'T become a Jack-of-all-trades) in a Fallout game is inexcusable and only shows that Bethesda patently failed at what they claimed from the get-go as an essential goal of the project.

Although I would prefer the "old way" ( FO2 had more direct attribute*X+skill*Y=result), your mod is definitely a step in the direction, in my opinion. I would prefer that to the FO3 way. Too bad I've got a 360.

In the same vein the OOO mod, was great for oblivion. Unfortunately I have a 360 so I can't mod the game as I'd like. It gives me a little hope that the OOO guy is apparently working for Obsidian now - His fixes addressed many of my oblivion complaints (another VERY good, but flawed, game)

Nice to see at least a few people agree that special needs to be looked at. Obviously we wont be convincing the rather contrarian mugglelover anytime soon, but reasonable minds can disagree.

My overall point is that I think using attributes in conjunction with skills adds depth to the game, for above mentioned blind guy sniping, etc, examples. I hope they take this into effect in NV, which I have high hopes for.

So Bethesda is to blame for your lack of self-control?

No. Only for unsuccessfully reinventing the wheel.

Ugh - I thought Aonaran had an excellent point. Since I've joined this board last week I constantly see your name pop up to shoot down opinions and add strange personal insults that are really rather pointless. I am forced to conclude that you are either the girl in your picture and rather immature (in which case I feel sorry for you and hope you find some positive role models in real life),

The fact is no matter what Bethesda did, you were going to complain. You have to make an effort to maximize all of your skills. You have to make EXTRAORDINARY effort without Broken Steel. You have to put the time into hunting down every skill-increasing item and taking the skill-increasing perks. It was all entirely up to you, and if you went for it, you're the one with the problem.

Yeah, probably. Welcome to the internet. Although I'm not trying to be whiny here - I'm hoping to be constructive in the .001% chance one of the ideas discussed here makes NV better.



I'm not worried about maxing out every single point to 100. What I'm worried about is being able to do almost everything in one play through. Even without BS you could pick every lock, hack every computer, and master at least 3 weapon types without breaking a sweat.

Games tend to shy away from letting you be a master of all trades for a reason. You want characters in a role playing game to have some variety in their abilities. In FO2 my first character was great at sniping, picking locks, science and speech. However, he was a total wuss in melee, couldn't use big or energy weapons effectively , svcked at healing, and had no outdoorsy skills. ANNNND he STILL couldn't pass the Vault City Citizenship test! And he LIKED it!

I have played FO1,2 and 3

I enjoyed them all but perfer FO3 for the open world,quests, plot and locations.
but I think FO3 could leran from FO1/2 in chacter devlopment withtraits,SPEICAL and few skills like medicine not just improveing on RAD-X,Stimpacks and radaway but make it more usful to chems and companions etc... (though admitly I did fine FO1/2 half skills kinda usless and uneeded) that and less overpowered companions like Fawkes(good idea for a companion but having near godly health and unlimted ammo for the one deadliest guns in the game)

This is the last time I'm going to say this: 5 skills out of 13 is not a jack of all trades.

If you want to write off my point of view as that of an unwavering traditionalist I'm alright with it. It might hurt my post count, but then again it might save me from developing carpal tunnels.



This. Part of loving something is engaging with the negative as well as the positive in hopes of making it better. Too many on these forums love Fallout 3 like a 5 year old loves their mommy. "You're saying bad things about Fallout 3, so you hate it! You're the bad man!" And then the conversation dilutes to calling each other stupid-heads.

I'd hope Obsedian put in those funny caveman-stupid dialouges you get when you have very low Intelligence Compare a stupid character (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgjytiY_UHg&NR=1) to a smart(er) character (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VaJ4eHcV6Q)

me love!

Take the effectiviness of the skills into account too. Putting points in weaponskills after they hit 70 or so, is pointless as the remaining effect they'll give is all that significant anymore. Barter is practically useless due to the player drowning in supplies and caps. Repairing weapons beyond 60-70 doesn't add too much of anything anymore (you're perfectly fine keeping your gear at that condition). Only science and and lockpick seem worthwhile due to the restrictions they have with lockpicking and hacking (but then again, too often I see a safe with manual lock and a terminal side by side waiting for a player with either skill to come by. And the loot inside isn't usually, despite the locklevel, worth the effort - few stims, mininuke and some caps). So basicly you don't even have to max out the skills. For example.