Really. If I write a book that is completely separate from the TES Lore and include it in a mod, how is that in any way based on Bethesda's work?

The scripts I write for my mods are utterly different from those that Bethesda wrote. I don't look at their scripts, I don't care about their scripts.

While I understand your point, using the words "Bethesda" and "quality standards" might be a bit of an oxymoron, especially considering the kerfuffle created by the Skyrim patches.

Calm down

Doesn't matter. Your mod wouldn't even work if they hadn't released their game. Derivative work. You need to look up the definition of that. It means that yes, you contributed something, but you would have had nowhere to start without the original author.

I am not allowed to write the sequel to Michael Crichton's "Timeline" and make any money from it, no matter how much I might like to think that I wrote a whole book on my own. Doesn't matter, I based my work on his work and so he gets to make the call. End of discussion.

Is it wrong that I'm excited about the workshop?

Is it wrong that I plan to use both?

Will I be shunned if I choose to make a mod via the Workshop and put it up on Steam?

I have a simple answer, the moment they start charging for mods, steam, beth or modders, I'll just mod for myself, the moment mods go commercial is the moment you will see the modding community go down hill fast, you want to earn money for your mod, then get a job with one of the companies!, the spirit of the modding community is about freely sharing their creativeness, you initially chose and volunteered to share.

Even as a modder, I'm against having the ability to charge for mods, it would cut into the fun of being able to try things out however you want, plus I've tried out a lot of mods that I ended up not really liking, even popular ones, quality control would be crucial but difficult to implement effectively. The only way I'd really support it would be something like a monthly subscription to a mod database, any and all mod downloads fully included in that monthly fee. Modders would be paid a percentage of the money brought in, based on the popularity of their contributions.

Yes, but if you note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_v._Arriba_Soft_Corporation (hey, look! I already researched derivative works before you told me to! Aren't I smart?) you see that in that case the increased value to the public (in this case, people who own Oblivion / Skyrim) of a derivative work can equate to the derivative work being transformative and thus (possibly) fair use.

And also, the way you define "Derivative work" is a bit of an issue. If Apple hadn't released the iPad, people couldn't have made millions selling flimsy rubber "cases" that fit around the iPad. Thus, those flimsy rubber cases are suddenly derivative works?

Scenario:

Beth (or Steam) rob mods and make people pay for them -> what will happen -> People will download those mods from Nexus (Or other sites)

Those two phrases should be enough:

"Free User Content" "You can use fan-created mod sites" (Or something like that)

Fair enough, any modder who wants to charge for their work should also be charged to put their work up or create their own website, I believe that's fair.

As I said in earlier threads about this topic. Monetizing mods will lead to a split in the community, lower the quality and hinder (even stop) the free information flow between mod makers. As I experienced in the Sims mod community which I left for this reason.

The reason why Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3 & NV mods where so successful was because of the community and the information flow. We will see how it develops but I am not very confident it is for the better.

Is their any confirmation that the Workshop is 'pay for mod'?

Is there a link to where it's said that this is what they will do?

sure you will
people need to stop lying to themselves like this
you'll get all hyped up for the next TES game, buy it as soon as it comes out
than when it doesn't fully meet every expectation you have (which will happen)
you go onto a forum to cry about how bethesda are greedy liars and you'll never buy any of their products ever again

y'all stupid

It's not, it's just a concern, currently the mods will be free.

If it's transformative and serves and independent purpose, yes. However, by definition, mods are not transformative nor do they serve any independent purpose seperate from the game itself. And "transformative" in copyright law is a term of art. OOO is not transformative of Oblivion, because while it might be an overhaul, it is still a video game and still functions on the same platforms and still uses the same engine. Transformative in copyright refers to actually changing the nature of the work, not the content.

I'm familiar with that case, I have an exam about it on Wednesday You need to pay special attention to the court's actual language that the thumbnails were no longer pictures, but served as a "description" of the object being linked to. The court stated that there is no reasonable alternative way to "describe" and image other than to simply show it. Thus, the reduced size and quality was sufficiently transformative because the search engine had no intent or design to use the image in any way other than informative.

Now clearly if you write your own text, record it seperately and independently from any game platform, don't use any of Bethesda's lore or characters or story, then you have effectively just written your own short story and can copyright that. Is that really what we are talking about?

OK, OK

Look. Folks. I'm actually going to be serious a moment.

I have done a lot of things- some big, some small, for a combat flight simulation. All of them for 100% free. I spent a fair bit of cash buying reference material for those projects and I spoke with people that actually served in WWII that did the things I based my projects on

Some of those projects were hosted on the publisher's website. In fact one of them is still listed here, bizarrely:

http://il2-sturmovik.de.ubi.com/en/missions.php

They don't get one cent from it. Not a single penny. They hosted it and I agreed to do it to have a place the community could easily get it. There was no shenanigans and while I suspect that some money was made off of re-hashing some of my work, it was by people that run companies completely separate, who downloaded my work and changed it around. And it's just a suspicion I have based on e-mails and contacts I received from people that worked for those companies, asking if I could contribute X Y or Z.

Until the way Skyrim Mods are hosted is shown to be a problem, then this whole thing is a tempest in a teacup. Should Skyrim Mods prove to be a money maker, then TES will come crashing down in my opinion- end of the road for the series, and gamesas will have a lot of explaining to do regarding how they planned to have modders make the games what their customers want.

But there is so far no evidence of that apart from fears and rumors. Get the facts, and then react.

Ah, I see. I concede the point. S'why I'm a psychologist and not a lawyer.

Of course, this is all dependent on if Bethesda wants to create such a system for monotizing mods. If they don't, they don't. If they do, they will figure out a way to make sure that modders get paid for the work that they do. I'm merely discussing this in a theoretical context - if Bethesda / Valve decides to use Steam Workshop to allow modders the possibility of earning some paltry amount of money for the work that they do (as, again, we can see with such things as TF2 and Second Life - examples, people), then I think that's a good idea and I'd be on board with it.

Oh, and good luck with your exam. I'll be flying out to Arizona, praying to Julianos to let me finish my Master's program.

By the way, Reneer. If you want a copy of the full text of that actual opinion, I can send it to you. I'm not sure if it's available anywhere.

It's more technical than that. You have to change the medium. It would effectively have to be something that isn't a game. You can write a book about a picture. You can draw a picture about a book. You can't write a book about a book, or draw a picture of a picture.

See what I mean?

Surely that's your own opinion? The beauty of mods is they can be chosen to be used or not. Obliviously you didn't like how something worked in the game and so modded it, that's what us modders do. But not everyone agrees with us on what the game "should" be like, or what features the next game "should" include. To say "my mods should have been in Skyrim" is a bit extreme, don't you think?

No. Modders have been doing it for free. There is no reason to start charging now. They don't have to make mods. If they start making money, then good for them.

Reneer,

I've used your stuff in the past, I'd probably not mind donating $5 if I use your stuff for Skyrim and you had a donate button or something.

However, paying for mods is an awful, awful idea. Every random bloke and his dog will be posting [censored]e for money and the good, passionate modders will be lost in the flood of crap.

Leave the modding to the passionate enthusiasts.

Holy crap people are still discussing this? Go read my post on the first page.

On you steam library view there is a dropdown next to the search box. Select tools on the dropdown.

This is where the Creation Kit will be accessed.

...

It has NOTHING TO DO WITH PAYING FOR MODS!

The Steam Workshop will only make it simpler to install the mods, though you'd still want to install a launcher to manage the mod loading order.

Skyrim isn't set up with the technology to enforce payment for mods, as you can see people are already modding it with the same technology used in older Beth games.

I can (probably?) get it through my University, but I'd greatly appreciate it.

Well, you can write a book about a book - else Cliff's Notes would be out of business pretty quick (though I think I understand your larger point).

I was using hyperbole for effect. No, I don't think my own mods should have been in Skyrim outright. I mean, my Guard Overhaul is reflected in Skyrim's new and improved Guard system, certainly, but, overall, no.

To take an example from your and my work that shares similarities as to function, I do think that it would have added greatly to immersion for Bethesda to implement viewing exteriors inside interior cells in Skyrim. They certainly could have done it without that much of an FPS hit.

Again, I never said "all mods" I said "some mods." Some mods being those that are allowed into the Steam Workshop, for example. I am certainly passionate about modding - I wouldn't be doing it after four years if I wasn't. I can - and will - get by simply on the joy that I get from seeing people enjoy the work that I do.

I doubt they would do this though