It still would not matter, since Alva was turned by Movarth, who was turned by a Cyrodiilic vampire. Unless Bethesda retconned everything and said Movarth was a Volkihar and the Cyrodiilic vampires do not exist, completely contradicting the existance of Lord Lovidicus, Janus Hassildor, Seridur and Jakben Earl of Imbel.

In other words, Bethesda really fumbled vampires in this game to the point that there's no apparent logic to the way they work at all.

Eh it seems that way considering all the appearance bugs females have and removing stage 4 hostility and the vampire dread cloak spell.

Don't remind me.

According to the Imperial Library Immortal Blood was possibly made up by the author.

So we should make assumptions based on edits? IL is just like the UESP or the ES wiki. As I said before, Immortal Blood has correct claims. People always seem to forget that.

which is why I tend to use Better Vampires and RP it as vampirism works a little different in me being the dragonborne it saves me the headache of trying to make sense of this.

I have long suspected the fact that the PC can tell someone is a vampire as a way of giving the player better information. Rather like the way we can see ghosts re-enacting their last moments like the Penitus agent in The Infernal City - though as far as I know we never received training to do it.

In other words - its to let you (the player) know whats going on. If you could see through NPC eyes Sybelle would look perfectly normal.

Without Dawnguard, there is one type of vampire eye -- black with a red iris.

With Dawnguard, there are now two types of eye -- the above red and black (which now glow softly) and the glowing yellow eyes.

Sybille Stentor received a minor facelift in Dawnguard -- mainly, making her nose smaller and giving her some color in her cheeks. In the vanilla game, she had hazel eyes because those eyes were incorrectly set as the default eyes for a number of female vampire races. As Dawnguard changed the default eye to the glowing red eyes, her eyes are now red.

She never was intended to be different from other vampires. Hert shares the same anomally, as does any female player vampire.

A number of other vampires received far more noticeable alterations: Movarth became a skinhead Nord instead of a template of vampire bossess, and Hert's hair went from jet black to blond, but no one cares about those.

Alva's eyes are not glowy to conceal the revelation that she is a vampire, similar to Seridur in Oblivion, with no bearing on lore. Interestingly, they both have green eyes.

Immortal Blood is, in all practical purposes, an amusing short story with "a twist at the end" that, given one possible location, foreshadows the ending to the Oblvion quest "The Order of the Virtuous Blood" -- not a bible on how vampires in other provinces must be portrayed.

Not the first time lore doesn't mesh with gameplay -- in Morrowind, the skill book Trap featured some Berne vampires who were able to pass unrecognized in a tavern by wearing cowls, while the player is always known to be a vampire regardless of their headwear.

A story which has basis in fact such as Movarth and everything about the Cyrodiilic vampires. So we know there is some truth to it.

Or, one anonymous author's interpretation of the creation of the near-legendary vampire lord Movarth Piquine, styled as being written by the vampire who turned him in order to draw readers, with most of the descriptions of other vampire clans entirely fictional and intentionally odd or grotesque, to shock Cyrodiil's white-bread populace.

The Manifesto that first appeared in the Vile Lair DLC for Oblvion is written by vampires (we can assume), who obviously would be knowledgeable about other clans -- but their haughty, self-agrandizing demeanor casts doubt on their claims that the fickle Daedra princes have made them "unique". This book mentions the Glenmoril Wyrd and the Whet-Fangs of Black Marsh, as of yet unfeatured in a game (the Glenmoril are witches primarilly, according to Daggerfall, Oblivion, and Bloodmoon).

Whatever this "Order" is, it's likely a lot smaller than the author presents it as, or, perhaps, defunct -- the lair's possessions have been in storage for a decade since they last belonged to Greywyn, the copy of ...Lamae found with it is some two hundred years old by the time of Oblivion, according to the time of translation, and aside from the lair, the only other copy in the entire Elder Scrolls series is in the ruins of Castle Volkihar -- obviously ancient (Greywyn, a vampire of undetermined age, calls Deepscorn his "old" hideaway).

Oh Man, EXCELLENT and very well written post.

Without Dawnguard there was also a Vampire eye that had a black pupil, yellow iris and red where the normal white of a human eye was. I've not checked, but think this eye was for Vampires who originally had all black eyes before they were vampirised. With Dawnguard this eye turns all yellow with a glow.

Werewolf&Vampire is correct. "Immortal Blood" is accurate and there are even other books and gameplay that back up some of its claims. You cannot just dismiss the information you do not like and ignore the information that has been proven true.

Actually it was a bug, well noted on too.

^ This

The fact still remains that the other vampire populace of Tamriel are grotsque creatures. The three clans in Morrowind are hideously ugly, numerous ingame books also suggest vampires are disgusting creatures and are known to all. Other vampires can hide themselves through clothing or illusion spells if they are truly skilled in it. The only exception we know so far is the Order Vampyrum, or any vampire of the Cyrodiilic bloodline who can feed and retain a human-like appearance and stave off the sun.

The Order is implied to be small, yes. Since only a handful of vampires achieved political and social prowess, they are the members who deserve to be part of the clan while the rest skulk in dungeons. You can compare the Order to the Volkihar and the other clans shown in the games, Morrowind included. There is a structured organization with members of the vampiric tribe who attend to clan affairs. Likewise, there are rogue vampires who are part of the bloodline, but not part of the tribe itself. Case in point, the thin-blooded vampires in Skyrim, the savage vampires of Bloodcrust cavern in Oblivion, or the other named rogue vampires from Quarra, Berne or Aundae clans in Morrowind. So my final conclusion is that the Order itself has a group of members who are spread throughout Cyrodiil, but otherwise keep a very low profile.

There is no proof the Order is defunct and disbanded, considering we encounter many individuals in the game who fit their decriptions. Seridur is manipulative and formed a group of vampire hunters to kill other vampires, most likely the savage ones. He also seeks to hide behind the facade of being a mortal slayer of vampires. Lord Lovidicus is a fine nobleman who has been concealing his vampirism for two centuries, and lived in his fort full of servants and midwives. He tended to the burdens of nobility and his vampirism such as dealing with aristocrats and trying to find a way to tell his wife he was a vampire after she was pregnant with his child. He still fits the decription of a Cyrodiilic vampire because he is depicted as a civilized man of social standing and breeding and influence, until of course he is locked away.

Janus Hassildor is a great example simply because his dialogue alone. A count, a nobleman and a vampire who hates savage vampires simply because they enroached in his territory, they have given into their animalistic urges and they draw too much attention. Same exact reason the Order Vampyrum hates them.

There is a good chance the book itself was released in the DLC becaue after Immortal Blood said the developers decided to flesh out the clan itself with all these nobleman vampires in the game. Lore-wise, they are there and they exist. Gameplay wise, we just come across NPC's.

In conclusion, an Order of vampires cannot simply cease to be of existance because they are old. They are ageless. You realize how old Harkon and his people are? Very ancient. Just because Greywyn's lair is old does not mean in any way that the Order itself is an outdated clan. We found one book, yes, and thats good. In such a secretive clan, perhaps that was their bible and their absolute book which was made from the first of their strain and passed onto later generations. I doubt they would make copies of that book as they did Immortal Blood.

Immortal Blood had basis in fact, yes. Movarth exists, the Cyrodiilic clan exists. I do agree that it is vague on the Cyrodiilic vampires, and must have been considered a work of fiction in the mortal world. But the Manifesto opens the book(no pun intended) on the Order itself and what they represent and even implies that they manipulate the hand of society and infiltrated it, just as Seridur, Jakben, Janus Hassildor and others have.

They are haughty, coming across as arrogant and snotty, but aren't all vampires? Look at Harkon, look at the Volkihar members and their perspective on thin-bloods. Or the clans of Vvardenfell and their rude comments towards the player who has been called "accident" or "abominations" by the very leader of the clan, like all the other members. They still do respect other clans like the Whet-Fang and their use of catatonic cattle, which can be found in Deepscorn Hollow as the form of a sleeping prisoner who never awakens. So it is obvious the Order still exist in Cyrodiil, but the organization itself is a secret. Are they unique? Yes, just as Harkon and his family are unique among the "lesser" vampires.

Edit: I did get confused on this particular quote from the Manifesto.

The truth of it is that for most Skyrim vampires we simply do not know what breed they are.
Only the vampires that the game specifically names 'Volikhar master vampire', and variations thereon we know for certain are Volikhar.
There simply is no dialogue or anything else that indicates the type of vampirism Sybille has.

We also know the breed of Morvath, he and his family are the only ones we can be absolutely sure are Cyrodiil strain, as the book immortal blood explains his history.

Even the vampire clan added by Dawnguard does not have to be Volikhar.
Dialogue mentions that they did not build that castle, are not the original owners, so it is perfectly possible they took it from the Volikhar clan and drove them almost to extinction, with the sad remains hiding in caves.

The appearance of a vampire is no indication at all as the same 'model', glowing eyes, gaunt face etc. is used for all in-game vampires, with Dawnguard making some corrections and adding some variety.

I took this to mean that in order to blend in you need a legitimate reason for a nocturnal lifestyle, such as a vocation that means you are active at night - assassin, vampire hunter, thief, night sentry/guard, etc - or another reason such as an acceptable health issue, habits of an eccentric noble etc. The second part means that it is a goal to eventually have the ordinary populace end up believing that Vampires are fiction and myth - the same thing that RL Vampires have achieved.

Ah, excellent. Thanks.

I was a bit confused at that part for a second. So this further supports the idea that some of the NPC's in the game are members of this fraternity by custom and lifestyle, but is never mentioned ingame. Jakben lived behind the lie that he has a rare skin condition .

RL vampires, what?

Meh.. Is it just me or does beth utterly fail at portraying a 'blood starved' vampire? Your vampire is starving. any strength boost derived from that should be from a screaming mindless blood frenzy as they do anything within their power to gulp down as much blood as possable. THAT would be more then ample reason for anyone in their right mind to put a vampire down.

As it stands with dawnguard installed I swear they're all (the vampires) using some sort of Sith mind trick to fool everyone into thinking they're human. So the Illusion theory holds some water. If I need to prove some one is a vampire, let me cast a sunlight spell on them and have done with it.
Also the Volkihar are intensely territorial, as evidenced by frequent quests to go forth and destroy 'lesser' vampires, and I don't see a vamp from the Order lasting longer then the questionable graces of the dominant clan in Skyrim.

The one problem with Beth having a character experience a blood frenzy would be that it would take control from the player. Just because a character is a Vampire they should not have any of their free will removed. So a player must always be the one to decide if they go into a frenzy or not. TES does have civilised Vampires.

I liked the original stage 4 vampirism where if you didn't feed you just gave off too many signals to the populace that you were a Vampire so they attacked you. Feeding was to make sure you looked and were perceived as a normal person. I know the appearance of the PC character didn't change at stage 4, but you have to imagine there were other signals - smell, sound of voice etc - plus minor differences in your appearance and behaviour which gave you away. I always considered the logic behind the stage 4 thing is that the more you were your 'natural self' - that is not modified by anything you've taken in such as blood from feeding - the more powerful you were and also the more obviously alien and not 'normal' you were. There is some established mythological background to Vampires (or people suffering from certain diseases) needing to drink blood in order to not suffer in daylight and to appear more like a normal person, so avoid getting singled out as something 'other' and ultimately shunned or attacked. Presumably if they didn't go to the trouble of maintaining a lifestyle to attempt to look and behave 'normally' they were also more dangerous to normal people which could be equated to being stronger.

Thats just it though, you can have a vampire who is the sweetest little old granny in the world who makes every little orphan feel happy and loved. She might actualy love all those little kids and the people in her community. Starve her and sweet little granny will temporarily lose her mind and drain as many as it takes to fill her belly. And be right horrified when she comes to and sees whats left of little orphan timmy. Or perhaps Milkman Bob. Bloodlines did this beautifuly.
As things stand now you starve your vamp to bring the beast within closer to the skin and reap more power from it. Sunlight is more of an anoyance then a threat, and people don't even attack you any more.
Heck the werewolf has a better mechanic then that, forcing you to feed if you wish to continue to fuel your strength or heal your wounds.

stentor to me sounds more cyrodillic then breton. but still the volkihar are from skyrim and who is to say sybille didnt become a vampire in skyrim where the ruling clan is the volkihar.

I wouldn't like the 'out of control' mechanic so I'm glad TES have never used this. I don't like the werewolf mechanic in Skyrim either since it feels so clumsy and heavy handed (wolves for me are intelligent and controlled beings as well). I do miss having to feed in order to fit in and interact with normal society, however. It added a need to maintain my character and pay attention to time of day etc. I think there needs to be some impetus to have the player feed as a Vampire, and I like balancing power against being able to function in society, and I definitely wouldn't want to play a Vampire if it involved not having control of whether or not my character has fits of violence. For RP purposes I think the player should decide if and when they become violent. (I also don't buy any RL excuses of people not being capable of controlling themselves, so don't want this reflected in a game).