I see that what the Stormcloaks has done is a wakeup call for the empire, but I see no reason to completely dismantle the "system" because of it. I'm not an idealist. The empire doesn't have to be perfect.

The longer the peace lasts, the harder the Thalmor work to weaken humanity and to pocket as many of the corrupt Imperial officials as they can. But even without the Thalmor, the Empire has been growing more and more corrupt since Morrowind. Nay, I say it is time for a new order.

*raises tankard of Mead* To Talos, to the independence and prosperity of Mankind, and to new beginnings!

Exactly this. A peace treaty amounts to a surrender when every demand is agreed to. The empire called it a truce purely to save face.

You ever think WHY they did it?

Where's the sense in winning a war when every soldier, and half your population, is dead. The Empire knows when to pull back and lick it's wounds, and Ulfric doesn't. If Ulfric wasn't an impatient moron and started the rebellion, draining the Empire's resources, the Empire may have attacked the Thalmor and sent them back to their piss-hole of a rock they call an island.

It helps that Rikke and Aela are both voiced by Claudia Christian. I could just RP this whole thing as shallow and personal.

"Y'know... you remind me of my wife."

Right, because your entire population dead and wiped from the pattern of possibility is so much better than half of the population dead.

Thank you, Imperials, for making the end of the world possible.

I can't figure out why both the Empire and Stormcloacks come together and go "Wait we both hate the Thalmor, let's JOIN forces and start of slow by making a few of them disappear, then join with Hammerfell and bring those Elven Pricks down a notch."

Instead Ulfric went "BLARGH TALOS DIE EMPIRE BLARGH RACISM."
And Tullius was all like "BLARGH ULFRIC BLARGH."

They are both idiots in my minds, the fact that Ulfric banned Argonians from the city and the simple fact that he will not lift a finger to help a none Nord made me side with the Empire.

Right, because a few years (a decade at the most) is enough time for the Thalmor to set a plan they've spent thousands of years creating into motion, and completion.

Seriously, the Empire knows that the Thalmor being at peace with them is the ONLY way to beat them in the long run. If they continued the Great War, the casualties would have been TOO DAMN HIGH (lulz), and not worth driving the Thalmor out a few years earlier.

Given that they were obviously biding their time and stockpiling resources, they may have driven the Thalmor out, if not for Ulfric's uprising. Not to mention it's Ulfric's fault that there's anything bad going on because of Thalmor occupation. He started the enforcement on the ban of Talos worship, which was extremely lenient in Skyrim. Alvor even says 'It was nothing too major. Everybody had their own little shrine to Talos. That is, until Ulfric came along.' (paraphrased, because I'm not a recorder)

The Empire was doing what was best for Tamriel, and Ulfric was too stupid to see that.

You really should check out some of the earlier posts in this thread. I don't feel like explaining again why this is a misconception.

I would recomend reading into the lore. They both have their ups and downs, but both have points in which are highly accused as controlled or racist.

It would be best to play through both and read up on all the lore to current events. In the end it is only personal choice of who you want to win.

What misconception? It was mentioned several times that Ulfric banned Argonians from the city.

Damn right it is. Look how successful it's been already. The longer the Empire sits on its [censored], the more likely the Thalmor are to win. And the worst part? They could have won the Great War and not made this ridiculous compromise in the first place!



In the case of the Great War, the cost for peace is much greater than the cost of war. The only province who gains any sort of benefit out of the White-Gold Concordant is Cyrodiil.



All Ulfric did was quicken the inevitable, and show Skyrim the true face of the Empire. With a Stormcloak victory in Skyrim, Talos's power can be restored, as well as all the protections that it entails.


Wrong, the Empire was doing what was best for Cyrodiil. Hammerfell certainly saw this, and so has Ulfric.

You think it matters that General Tullius hates the Thalmor? He's an arm of the Empire; an Empire whos politicians are, in many cases (here we go again), corrupt and in the Thalmor's pocket.

Like I said, read the beginning of this thread. It's on the first two pages.

I started my main character over after i did Felt really bad about

You're missing my main point:

IF NOT FOR ULFRIC, THE EMPIRE MORE LIKELY THAN NOT WOULD HAVE DRIVEN THE THALMOR OUT. HE'S FORCING THEM TO WASTE THEIR RESOURCES FIGHTING HIS DAMNED REBELLION SO THAT THE THALMOR DON'T SWOOP IN AND [censored] HIS [censored] AFTER HE CONQUERS EVERYBODY THAT DISAGREES WITH HIM IN SKYRIM, AND DRIVES OUT EVERY NON-NORD.

The Empire, to keep Skyrim from getting ripped to shreds, has to help the Holds that don't want to be controlled by Ulfric fight him. Which wastes MASSIVE amounts of their resources, which could be used combating the Thalmor. And Hammerfall is nowhere near an accurate comparison, because they were all united. Ulfric is trying to usurp the throne, which is obvious in that he killed Torygg, who respected him more than any other living man.

It's evident that Skyrim is far from united under Ulfric, because half of Skyrim's Imperial Army is composed of Nords. And Nords are stationed in other areas under the Empire's banner.

Ulfric is dooming Skyrim to ripping itself apart, just preparing itself to get ripped apart by the Thalmor. He should have waited until the Empire could have set their plans in motion to drive the Thalmor out. Which was very soon, judging by what their fighting the Stormcloaks with.

it isn't really so much an misconception as your interpretation though Saying Ulfric is doing Argonians are favor by keeping them out of the city.

Yea I read it, and honestly it proved nothing, it is YOUR interpretation of it so that does not automatically make it fact, so treating the other races like scum means that he is doing them a favor? That is just silly.
A united Empire will be able to bring the Thalmor down, but of course Ulfric decided to go all power hungry and act as a "hero"
If Skyrim goes independent there is nothing stopping the Thalmor and the main force of the Empire to go and crush Skyrim, heck Ulfric is labeled as a asset for the Thalmor because he is weakening the Empire even more.
Instead of acting like a "hero" he should act smarter, the Empire is using resources against the fight against Ulfric instead of fighting the Thalmor, what kind of plan is that?
They should both join and strike down the Thalmor.
Oh and Talos won't save them, heck he did not stop the Thalmor from crushing them when they could openly worship them, what makes you think that he will "bless" them.

So you think. I disagree. I'm fairly convinced that Skyrim can stand on its own, especially considering that almost all the might of the Empire now comes from Skyrim. It's time to start putting that to good use, instead of standing idly by while the Thalmor slowly tighten their grip and drag off your family for worshipping the Divine who's stopping the End of the World and the Thalmor's ultimate goal.



All those resources should be used to fight the Thalmor, I agree. A shame that they (EDIT: the Empire) gave up on that already with their treaty, eh?



The funny thing about this is that he could have denied the challenge and a new moot would have been held. Don't hate Ulfric for doing what was necessary. And believe me, Hammerfell is a significant part of the equation. Because of their resistance, the Thalmor cannot risk invading Skyrim without spreading their forces thin.



And you think that when the Empire is driven out of Skyrim, they will choose to continue fighting for a foreign power against their homeland?



So you think. I disagree. Also, it's pretty obvious that the Empire is fairly incapable of handling the Stormcloak rebellion. If not for the intervention of the Dragonborn, the war would have dragged on for years. So much for having the strength to fight the Dominion; they can't even garner the strength to conquer a rebellion.

EDIT: Derp, the strength to fight the Dominion*. I don't think the Empire wants the strength to fight itself.

You know the funny thing about this thread? Opinion and perspective is what everything ultimately boils down to.

Well Ulfric would've been dead if it weren't for intervention of Aludin; so the intervention of the Dragonborn is more to offset Aludin than wherever the civil war was going.

Basically, from a pessimist's point of view, Skyrim, the Empire, and humanity is pretty much screwed, no matter what side you choose.

This is basically what the Empire wants, though. Skyrim and its forces as members, including the ones who decided to become Stormcloaks instead. This is what I was saying earlier, about the Stormcloaks basically existing to keep everyone fragmented and fighting wars against each other. So since the Stormcloaks are rebelling, Tullius and co want to crush them and get what's left of Skyrim.

And with the non-nord population alienated, Stormcloak Skyrim is a weaker force than imperial Skyrim taken on its own. Of course the civil war does the most weakening of all, but the Empire didn't ask for that. And Ulfrick doesn't exactly seem open to talking it out. See his big "I fight because" speech. Violence is the only thing he believes in.

The Empire is bigger than the Emperor but the Stormcloaks aren't bigger than Ulfrick.

The Empire has exhausted its usefulness.

As simply as I can put it, an Empire that cannot defend it's populous does not deserve to rule.

They've lost Elsweyr due to poor diplomacy and without a fight, abandoned Hammerfell to fend for itself, and now they're weak Emperor fights a civil war against Skyrim that he himself caused by submitting his people to WGC. And the Empire has grown so weak that they require the aid of the dragonborn to win their war for them.

Face it, Tiber Septim's Empire is dead. If you do not defend your Empire, you deserve to lose it.

No, it really doesn't. It says a lot about the (fairly obvious) Thalomere intentions in not making any real (as opposed to cosmetic) efforts to stop him.

The empire is not at all about to attack the Thalmor.