The hand-holding is starting to get on my nerves. : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:37 pm

There are a couple places in the game where things like that happen.

On one hand, it can ruin a perfectly good puzzle, but on the other hand, if you are stuck, the hints can help before the player gives up.

I guess the balance is trying to decide when the player is stuck and providing the assistance that they need, but not too soon or the game ceases to become a challenge.

It is unfortunate that they give away the answers so quickly. Puzzles are valuable in this game because there are so few of them; Skyrim tends to re-use puzzle themes and once you see the theme it is just a matter of execution. Myst it is not.

just put it where it should be, not really something needed in doing the door, or add it the intro area so there won't be any need for hand holding...

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:03 pm

It only happens in one that one dungeon, as far as I know, that you happen to have helpful soldiers giving you hints. Most of the time you are instead surrounded by undead keen on tasting Dovahkiin brains.

And they only do it if you waste time standing around or decide to talk to them, something a stuck player will most likely do.

Where you see hand-holding. I see an attention to details.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:38 am

I've heard lots of people complaining about Skyrim being too easy and having too much hand-holding, and I've always been annoyed by that, because it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. But I guess I'm about to become one of those people, because lately I've been noticing more and more "hand-holding" in the game.

Today I was doing a quest for the Imperial Legion, and I got to one of those ring puzzles on a door. I already knew how to do it, but for someone who has never seen one of those it might be interesting to have to try and figure it out. So I walked up to the door and looked at the puzzle. Then one of the soldiers who was with me spoke up. Here's about how it went:

Me: Walks up to the door.

Soldier: "Look, there's some kind of stone claw on the ground."

Me: Picks up the claw and activates the door. A trap is set off.

Soldier: "I wouldn't do that again unless you're sure it's going to open." (Thanks captain obvious...)

Me: Starts messing with the rings.

Soldier: "It looks like you have to open the door by rotating those rings in the right order."

Me: Rotates the rings a few more times.

Soldier: "Maybe the order you need is written on the claw itself!"

Me: "Wow really?! thanks for walking me through the entire puzzle step by step! Maybe i should just watch you do it next time!"

Things like this have just started to bug me lately. I still love Skyrim, and a little thing like this isn't going to make me hate the game or anything, but I kind of miss how you used to have to use your brain a little bit, and you got a feeling of accomplishment from finishing a quest. And I'm not even that old, so this isn't just nostalgia talking.

So yeah, sorry for the long post, just wanted to put this out there. What are your guys' thoughts on the issue?

Hey, there are those who get frustrated when they can't figure out a puzzle, that soldier is helpful for those that didn't watch the demo before playing Skyrim. :thumbsup:

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:02 pm

I agree on hand holding thing. In Skyrim there's one quests that shines out in that matter: Blood on the Ice. You actually got to investigate and look around for clues and quests marks were not always there to lead you. I think Skyrim needs at least a few more quests like that.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:30 am

What bothers me more than hand holding is the game blatantly lying to you. For example:

Spoiler

Nazir tells you to try killing Anoriath when he's hunting in the fields, but he never goes outside the gates of Whiterun.

Things like that bother me.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:31 pm

Long gone are the days when video games were the preserve of intellectual computer nerds. They have to appeal to a variety of brains and not leave anyone behind.

Things can go to the other extreme. I never would have worked out that I had to kill myself to complete a certain pilgrimage quest in Morrowind. The suicide and resurrection scenario just never occurred to me because it had no precedent, and I had to consult a spoiler in the end. So puzzles should be made challenging but not frustrating. The answer, to to keep both idiot and genius happy, is to make the 140+ IQ puzzles optional - for side quests, or leading to secret areas.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:02 pm

Such traps are really easy to solve. Just calculate all possibilities in your head and try them out. Using the hints on the claw was new for me, but not neccessarily something I had to know....

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:21 pm

These puzzles are designed (in-game, not from the player's perspective) to be easy. They are not there to keep tomb raiders out, otherwise the symbols wouldn't be on the claws at all. They are there to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Death_of_a_Wanderer.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:38 pm

http://i.imgur.com/VFjNf.jpg

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:56 am

I have to agree that some of the puzzles are ridiculously easy, and others can be very frustrating. the hand holding hasn't been too much of a problem for me as I avoid having followers; another little annoyance in the game!

Even the chests really need to be thought through better. I find it really frustrating that you can walk up to an unlocked chest and find an ebony or glass piece of armor in it then you spend five minutes unlocking a master chest to find 52 gold and a petty soul gem. If you want to set a challenge, fine, but make it a worth while reward. You end up with far to much money and loot anyway so now I just dont bother with master chests. Risk and reward is a fairly standard concept in life and easy enough to build into an RGP along with effort and reward!

Obviously everybody has their own preferences, and these things should really be automatically adjusted with the skill level, so people have the choice of how much help they want and get.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:32 am

I think it's all part of the new "gaming" experience, where companies are now building games that offer the least amount of delay.

That way, you're always moving forward, and idle time is reduced to a minimum.

Personally, I'm the slow playing type who likes to explore stuff, and don't like this particular style of gaming.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:32 pm

You actually have to do bleak falls before starting civil war quests so it makes even less sense

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:13 am

its not a problem with skyrim

ALL games have this hand holding crap now... luckily in skyrim a lot of it can be modded out, already got rid of the compass and the cross-hair and the arrow thingies that pop above people's heads (I know these are in options) and made the game harder and dragons are epic (deadly dragons mod)...etc

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:32 pm

http://i.imgur.com/VFjNf.jpg

lol

so true

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:59 am

I've heard lots of people complaining about Skyrim being too easy and having too much hand-holding, and I've always been annoyed by that, because it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. But I guess I'm about to become one of those people, because lately I've been noticing more and more "hand-holding" in the game.

Today I was doing a quest for the Imperial Legion, and I got to one of those ring puzzles on a door. I already knew how to do it, but for someone who has never seen one of those it might be interesting to have to try and figure it out. So I walked up to the door and looked at the puzzle. Then one of the soldiers who was with me spoke up. Here's about how it went:

Me: Walks up to the door.

Soldier: "Look, there's some kind of stone claw on the ground."

Me: Picks up the claw and activates the door. A trap is set off.

Soldier: "I wouldn't do that again unless you're sure it's going to open." (Thanks captain obvious...)

Me: Starts messing with the rings.

Soldier: "It looks like you have to open the door by rotating those rings in the right order."

Me: Rotates the rings a few more times.

Soldier: "Maybe the order you need is written on the claw itself!"

Me: "Wow really?! thanks for walking me through the entire puzzle step by step! Maybe i should just watch you do it next time!"

Things like this have just started to bug me lately. I still love Skyrim, and a little thing like this isn't going to make me hate the game or anything, but I kind of miss how you used to have to use your brain a little bit, and you got a feeling of accomplishment from finishing a quest. And I'm not even that old, so this isn't just nostalgia talking.

So yeah, sorry for the long post, just wanted to put this out there. What are your guys' thoughts on the issue?

I would rather say that it's good work from Bethesda. A NPC with a working brain actually managing to solve a quest with you. That's not hand holding.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:04 pm

I had something similar happen to me yesterday while doing Alduin's Wall quest. On the puzzle used to lower the bridge, Esbern outright told me how to solve it. As soon as I rotated the one on the left, he told me something like "Yes! that's the symbol!" and right away told me basically to set all three to that same symbol.

But it didn't bother me, since within the context of the quest Esbern is the expert on the subject and is who I am relying on to find the answers I need.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:43 pm

I would rather say that it's good work from Bethesda. A NPC with a working brain actually managing to solve a quest with you. That's not hand holding.

I agree but it would have been really better if he said "Let me take a look." and you were prompted with choice, "No", "OK".

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:16 pm

http://i.imgur.com/VFjNf.jpg

Hmmm true, but were is the bug that prevent you from triggering the quest?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:31 pm

"Wait, what are those markings on the claw?" would have sounded much more beleivable...

To be honest, why bother with the puzzles AT ALL?
The puzzles literally have the answers on the wall and nobody would struggle with them. A four year old could do them. Nobody completes one of Skyrim's puzzles and thinks "YES I'M SO AWESOME!!" as they jump out of their seat overwhelmed with a feeling of accomplishment. The puzzles are just completely redundant and pointless.

Either make REAL puzzles or just don't bother at all. It's design decisions like this that make me wonder wtf was going on during Skyrim's development. Not like I'm outraged by the presence of the stupid puzzles, but I mean I seriously cannot understand how the entire team was apparently on-board and thought they were a great feature worth keeping.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:13 am

What bothers me more than hand holding is the game blatantly lying to you. For example:

Spoiler

Nazir tells you to try killing Anoriath when he's hunting in the fields, but he never goes outside the gates of Whiterun.

Things like that bother me.

I killed him outside of Whiterun. Granted, he wasn't really hunting, so much as standing in the middle of nowhere, but it was outside the city.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:26 pm

To OP: Sounds like someone is starting to become a more experienced gamer.

Long gone are the days when video games were the preserve of intellectual computer nerds. They have to appeal to a variety of brains and not leave anyone behind.

Things can go to the other extreme. I never would have worked out that I had to kill myself to complete a certain pilgrimage quest in Morrowind. The suicide and resurrection scenario just never occurred to me because it had no precedent, and I had to consult a spoiler in the end. So puzzles should be made challenging but not frustrating. The answer, to to keep both idiot and genius happy, is to make the 140+ IQ puzzles optional - for side quests, or leading to secret areas.

Yeah. These days I've to play almost every "accessible" mass market game modded to be more intellectually challenged. Without much brain use I get bored, and without challenge I don't feel like a hero and rewarded.

About puzzles, yes, that's how it should be done. There should be optional quests with hard puzzles. And if you don't know how to solve the puzzle you can't continue. Any hard puzzles in main quests should be extra things like opening secret passages etc. Those you can just ignore if you don't know how to solve them.

http://i.imgur.com/VFjNf.jpg

This is true.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:15 am

i have to disagree with this i love it when puzzles are soo belligerently stupid hard it infuriates me and i end up rage quiting because about an hour l8r it dawns on me what i was missing and everything falls into place, for me thats when i get my euphoric video game high and that sense of accomplish me, i'd have to say the hardest puzzle i found so far was the one in Volksyge i believe it is spelled like that, its just south of Northwatch Tower which is south west of Solitude...that being said it wasn't that hard...unfortunately

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:14 pm

Skyrim needs a damn Water Temple.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:09 pm

Skyrim needs a damn Water Temple.

HEY LISTEN

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:34 pm

...damn Water Temple.

I think I saw what you did there :banana:

I'd prefer no puzzles at all. I'd rather spend time on tougher battle tactics to take the enemy down. Overall, I'm OK with the puzzles as is. I was about 60 hours in before I realized the solution was on the claw. I just cycled through the potential door combinations until one worked :blink:

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