You what I've never understood, how could the Thalmor have destroyed Cloud Ruler Temple and the Blades if they never took Bruma and the Emperor was marshaling his main forces there? A simple raid would not have been enough to take the Blades' fortress, it would have required a major siege that left the Thalmor exposed to counterattack.

Overall it is quite good. A few minor things are that Vvardenfell still exists it is just not habitable, it did not sink into the sea or anything, and there is nothing that says either way whether Kvatch was actually taken, so I would not assume that it was. I would maybe assume that it wasn't taken unless specifically stated.

There are various reasons why Cloud Ruler Temple could have fell. It might have been sacked by a strike force at the beginning o the war when no one knew what the Thalmor were capable of and while the Blades were still reeling from the loss of so many men. It could have been destroyed in fighting around Bruma when Mede II was restoring his line after abandoning the Imperial City. We know the Thalmor placed an emphasis on its destruction but without more info it will be impossible to know when they did it.

Kvatch is an unknown but probably did fall. It lies along one of the Thalmor's routes of advance and the supply lines that would run with it. It is easily defended and I doubt the Thalmor would leave such a strong position in their rear. Likewise Skingrad fell without us being told so. I believe that had Kvatch held out for any period of time we would have heard of it as an example of Imperial defiance. In my opinion Chorral, Bruma, and Cheydinhal are the only Cyrodiliic cities to not fall.

Long live the Empire!

It is fascinating reading the lore before events occured.

i dont understand this. black marsh is more like russia. you know they have never been succesfully conquered into anything. its to harsh of an enviroment. not to mention the sentient trees that live their that give the argonians protection and unique abilities. plus some of the argonian cities are undergound and the only way to get tot hem is thorugh these jellyfish things that slowly kill you when you use them.

So much death.... did my character in oblivion do nothing? Save the world from the oblivion crisis and everyone decides to start killing eachother....

The oblivion crisis couldnt have ended without talos right? We used some of his blood....

You really don't want to know the details...

I'm printing out your OP - it will have a place of honor in my Skyrim strategy guide.

I try to look at it as "It could have been a lot worse" without our help Martin would have been killed in Kvatch and the Dragonfires never relight, ensuring Dagon's victory over the world. Instead of political and civil strife we would have been conquered and mutilated beyond anything we could imagine. Our only salvation would be if one of the other gods had intervened.

Any chance this will be updated soon? I really enjoy reading it!

Does anyone think that there could be an expansion about this? I would really like to begin the Second Great War and I really want to fight the Thalmor, those elves are a bunch of racist bastards. I hope the next expansion deals with this, it'd be really great IMO.

Excellent information

While speaking of the Forsworn Rebellion and Markarth Incident, one thing has troubled me: why was Ulfric in the Reach in the first place? It seems unlikely that he would travel hundreds of miles/kilometers to recapture Markarth just for "Nord Patriotism" and the ability to openly worship Talos when he had more important issues like solidifying his control of Eastmarch.

i just hope this issue becomes DLC at some point. I want to resolve this somehow, bring back talos worship

Here's my personal interpretation of how things probably went, based on what info we have.

According to his dossier, the Thalmor contacted Ulfric, who then proved his worth as an asset. This is followed immediately by talk of the "so-called" Markarth Incident. I think they're connected.

So, the Thalmor likely banned the worship of Talos to sew discontent. However, they knew that the Empire would enforce it half-heartedly at best. So, they needed an excuse to get in there and do it themselves, that coming with the added bonus of sewing even more discontent. They were aware of what was going on in Markarth and they were aware of Ulfric, so they contacted him. Through this contact, they spurred Ulfric to action, who raised an army and marched on Markarth. He freed the city from the Foresworn and declared the open worship of Talos. That put the Empire between a rock and a hard place. They could either enforce the WGC, or they could go back to war. The war ended only a few years ago and the Empire wouldn't have had enough time to prepare for round 2, so they chose to uphold the WGC and arrested Ulfric.

In prison, two important things would have happened. First, Ulfric probably felt personally betrayed by the Empire and would have grown very resentful of them. Second, he would have realized that the Thalmor played him. He'd be very angry at them, which would explain why the Thalmor consider him unapproachable right now. He'd probably also have a lot of guilt knowing that what followed was largely his fault, that he was the one that gave them the excuse they needed. He then has an unknown (at least to me) number of years for his resentment and anger to boil and fester. When he gets out, he does what many people seeped in anger and guilt would do. He overreacts to compensate. He turns on both the Thalmor and the Empire, taking up the cause of Talos to give him a sense of righteousness. And in the process, unwittingly, doing the Thalmor another favor.

You leave out the dialogue Jarl Igmund has on these events. His family are the ones who planned the retaking of their city and offered free worship of Talos in exchange. Igmund says "it seems foolish now, but at the time we hoped the Thalmor wouldn't find out."

Whether the Thalmor were actually orchestrating it or not is pure speculation. They try to take credit for the moons- literally. It wouldn't surprise me if they had informers working behind the scenes, but the idea that Ulfric was knowingly working with his torturers is kind of ludicrous IMO. I suppose that's where personal interpretation comes in.

I want to see a DLC about the Thalmor

I'll try to do more today, but i'd really like to expand on the events prior to The Great War that i've learned from others in this thread before I finish with the events of 4E 201 Skyrim when the game starts. Lots of people have brought up a lot more clarification and expanded on areas that I was unaware of at the time.

Great work! All of this info is scattered across the internet, but it's nice to have it all put together in one spot. And this is very well written, which is a big plus! Well done

Might I suggest you add more concerning Potenate Ocato? The 'Rising Threat' series of books will help you there. From memory, Ocato became aware of the Thalmor threat but was assassinated before he could do much.

That fits under the part where I said the Thalmor knew what was going on in Markarth. But, if you want me to elaborate...

Igmund's family was desperate to get Markarth back, so they offered the free worship of Talos to get people to help them. The Thalmor were aware of this and saw an opportunity, so they contacted a man they believed would be useful to them named Ulfric Stormcloak and spurred him to action.

See? It doesn't actually change anything of what I said. Is it speculation? Sure, but you know what? It fits what evidence we have. Ulfric did SOMETHING to prove his worth as an asset to the Thalmor. In other words, the Thalmor got Ulfric to do something that was of value to them. In the dossier, that is immediately followed by a comment of how valuable the Markarth Incident was to them. That is not random coincidence. It follows the train of thought of that paragraph. The Markarth Incident is also the only event from that time period that we know Ulfric was involved in.

Thats one of the things I wanted to expand upon because I must have overlooked that part in the series when I first read it. The most difficult part is spelling the names correctly, I'm crap enough with names yet alone names who are based on ancient foreign names. xD

You left out them not only consolidating Summerset, but invading Valenwood within another 7 years. And the great war suggests otherwise about the state of the empire.



The empire is(was) not Cyrodiil. Despite that being the only province they actually care about.



Also keep in mind that at this time Ulfric wasn't a Jarl. He was the son of the current jarl of Windhelm. Ruling Eastmarch wasn't his duty. As Mith and Celan said, I expect Igmund and Co were probably advised by the thalmor agent that the promise of free worship would be good incentive to help retake the city. So they went along with it. The agent later contacts Ulfric and lets him know of the situation of Markarth and he heads over there too. Though I suspect the agent was probably telling anyone he could find in the hopes that a large force would show up and need to be quelled afterwards. Ulfric didn't become Jarl until after the end of his imprisonment after the Markarth incident.(His father died while he was in prison)


Also, despite your claims to not use biased sources Elven, you're still treating Bear as a completely factual source in your intro paragraph for the Forsworn section. Fix it up a bit would ya? Don't start off the section proclaiming Bear as what happened. Use quantifiers such as According to "The Bear of Markarth" or According to testaments from Jarl Igmund/Braig/Thonar. I can get you screenshots if you want the full quotes.(I have all of Braig's. Looks like the UESP does too. They don't have Igmund's take though.) Keep in mind that Braig is a forsworn.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thonars-journal
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Braig

I always welcome more sources and different viewpoints, but a little less negativity about it would also be appreciated. I'm more than willing, eager in fact, to edit sections as I become aware of new information, yet just because I don't glorify Ulfric and demonize the Empire as you often do doesn't mean i'm being biased. If i wanted to be biased I very well could be. I try my best to keep it as neutral as possible, but I can give an example of a rewritten sentence in a biased manner.

Upon becoming aware of the situation in In 4E 175, Ulfric, seeking to expand his influence in the region agreed to raise a private militia force to retake the Reach before the Empire could conclude the surprisingly peaceful negotiations.

Then tell me, what's the source for the opening paragraph of the Forsworn section? Is there an actual confirmation of the events that took place?

The sources came from a combination of books, mainly:

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/High Rock, which recounts that the 'Bretons' (Reachmen, Forsworn, and what other names they have been called over the years) had been the first to inhabit the area before being ousted by the Nords when the 1st Empire came about.

The Bear of Markarth, "the Forsworn Kingdom was quite peaceful for those 2 years they were in power.
True, some crimes were committed against former Nord landowners (often those accused of being the harshest towards their native workers), but on the whole the Forsworn ruled their lands fairly, and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom."

With minor references from The Great War confirming time periods.


If you want to come up with your own paragraph and recounting of the event please feel free to do so, I'd be happy to alter or replace parts or all of it if you found better material.

The dwemer were the original inhabitants of the reach, not the forsworn. And the Nedes and Aldmer after them.(Which then intermingled with the elves and became bretons) The bretons would be highly offended to be lumped in with the reachmen which were said to be an intermingling of nearly every race.(including Nord)

And yet http://www.imperial-library.info/content/madmen-reach doesn't paint a pretty picture of their methods


http://www.imperial-library.info/content/legend-red-eagle


http://www.imperial-library.info/content/holds-skyrim


But it's not just that. Parts of Bear of Markarth have been shown to be factually untrue. It throws the entire account into question.

Discredited by Igmund(Pro-Empire)

Discredited by Thonar(Pro-Thonar) and Braig(Pro-Forsworn).

Arrianus either didn't bother to do any research this time, or decided intellectual integrity wasn't important.(This isn't an argument about whether Ulfric was present at the executions. It's throwing into question the validity of the book)

Thank you E_P for a great read. I have followed several other threads concerning Empire VS Stormcloaks and have enjoyed those as well.

This is exactly this subjective thought invoking material that makes this game (and all the TES games) so fun. The fact that you and so many others have put your individual perspectives out for everyone to read is awesome.

Call me silly but as I read these perspectives, I envision sitting in a Roman Theater listening to each side argue their points.

Good assessment I think. And right in line with my opinion that Ulfric is a useful idiot with an ego problem who lets his emotion trump his reason and is actually more of a threat to his own people than the Thalmor and the Empire combined. I totally agree in defying the ban on Talos worship because it is unjust (Talos worshippers do not mutilate themselves or others, do not engage in cannibalism or human sacrifice, do not persecute others who do not worship Talos, and are non-violent in practice). The religion hurts no one, even if the Thalmor think it's sacriledge and blasphemy. If Talos worship were wrong in their eyes, then they should be able to convince Talos worshippers why its wrong in the course of theological debate. However, viewing the situation from an objective position, I think it would be dangerous and actually more hurtful for Talos worshippers to follow Ulfric.

That said, from a role-playing standpoint, I'd certainly follow him using a Nord from a small village.