The Stormcloaks are bad? Thread #2 : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:43 pm

The Stormcloaks do skirt the boundaries between nationalism and racism. But I went Imperial, for the Emperor!

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:22 pm

They came for the "non-pure" of the altmer and I said nothing.
Then they came for the Bosmer, and I said nothing.
They turned the Khajiit against me, and still I said nothing.
My neighbors fought bloody fueds leaving two of them homeless, and still I did nothing.

They came to my front door and demanded things of me, and I protested, but eventually gave in to all of the demands. I told them about my friends the Redguards and that they could have them instead.

They are no longer on speaking terms with me.

My best friends are now arguing about what a traitor I am.

Why don't they trust me?

Like the paraphrasing, and I think you were dead on the money with this one.

Not even that, I'm affraid. The decadent Empire is blatantly incompetetnt. Look at the state of their forts, the condition the roads are in, the fact there's wild beasts roaming around freely 2 minutes away from major cities, let alone small towns. The Empire provides close to zero of the services a powerful rule would while at the same time oppresses as hough it was one. It has had its chance and it has failed miserably. It's time for the opposition to rise and take power.

I wouldn't go this far as that. They are ravaged from a war, and spreading themselves too thin to try and keep Skyrim, as well as defend themselves. Giving in to the Thalmor, and turning a blind eye to what they do to the people they want to claim as their own however, is why I think the Stormcloaks are in the right.

That being said, I will still try out the Imperials.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:52 am

I'm frustrated that you can't convince some jarls to turn sides. I really like Balgruuf and Igrod.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:22 pm

um yea i support the empire cuz the stormcloaks are racist to the dunmer khajit and argonians and ulfric is just power hungry. and dont forget the empire is the only thing for skyrimz survival

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:02 pm

I'm frustrated that you can't convince some jarls to turn sides. I really like Balgruuf and Igrod.

Agreed. For Balgruuf especially, I think his inevitable allegiance should be determined based on either the side you choose during "Unbound", or the side of the war you have selected, especially as this is the introductory city and hold.

um yea i support the empire cuz the stormcloaks are racist to the dunmer khajit and argonians and ulfric is just power hungry. and dont forget the empire is the only thing for skyrimz survival

Read some of the other arguments on this thread. Most of the Stormcloaks do not make any racist comments, and most that do, do so regarding the ELVES who are oppressing them. This is not different than how many nations act during war. Americans had a distrust of the Japanese, and put many into glorified concentration camps during WW2. Germans stereotyped the Jews heavily during the war to convince their people to oppress them. "Filthy American Pigs", "[censored]ing Gooks", "Sand-N***ers", "Towel-Heads", etc.. Things like these are said about the opposition to boost morale, and cement the idea that "Our Team" is the right team to be on.

Back to Tamriel and Skyrim though:

Many of the Dunmer are refugees. There are Dunmer living in various places in Skyrim, living successfully, and accepted by their communities. They had to work hard for this, and rightfully so, as they are outsiders that have warred with the Nords before.

Many of the Argonians openly admit to being thieves and stealing from the docks/boats. They are also being kept away from their current war-time enemies, the Dunmer. Windhelm also has no real room to keep all these Dunmer and Argonian refugees.

The Khajiit are BLATANT thieves and mischief makers for the most part. While many of them are also good natured, it does not change the fact that others are rightfully suspicious of them. I have seen this same sentiment in both Morrowind AND Oblivion towards them. On top of this, they allied themselves with the Thalmor, the Stormcloaks most hated enemy. Additionally, the one character who offers full support to the Khajiit, Ysolda?

Spoiler

She becomes a Skooma smuggler. Just search either the forums or google for it. How's that for the corruptive influence of the Khajiit? Nothing against them personally, but even if I were one, I'd keep my eyes on their paws, to ensure they're staying out of my pockets.

Skyrim has been self sufficient before, is home to proud, never surrendering people (including many of the NON-nords that live here, it's more of a Skyrim way of life than Nord way of life), and is more than capable of defending it's lands (which have natural defensive advantages, such as mountain passes, and only treacherous icy waters to access by boats). Also, Hammerfell defended their lands from the Thalmor successfully (alone), why not Skyrim?

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:54 pm

Read some of the other arguments on this thread. Most of the Stormcloaks do not make any racist comments, and most that do, do so regarding the ELVES who are oppressing them. This is not different than how many nations act during war. Americans had a distrust of the Japanese, and put many into glorified concentration camps during WW2. Germans stereotyped the Jews heavily during the war to convince their people to oppress them. "Filthy American Pigs", "[censored]ing Gooks", "Sand-N***ers", "Towel-Heads", etc.. Things like these are said about the opposition to boost morale, and cement the idea that "Our Team" is the right team to be on.

He's joking.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:09 pm

Ulfric IS a good guy, or at least not a bad guy, but he really lucks responsibility other is other races...
I guessed he is just scarred (scar) by the empire and the Thalmor and because of that he lost his dignity for other races.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:28 pm

I have played as a dark elf from morrowind through skyrim. At first i was lured into Ulfrics lies and was a stormcloak. The empire doesn't like the High elves either but is trying to regain strength to fight back. Ulfric only cares about Nords and puts every other race in danger. The empire cant fight the high elves with one of their best armies in a civil war. The stormcloaks are the evil ones. Look at the "grey corner" of windhelm. Ulfric is racist!!!. Uniting skyrim under a stormcloak banner is to sacrifice all other races

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:57 am

Stormcloaks are not bad...

It's just Ulfric, he's a giant [censored].

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:26 pm

Stormcloaks are not bad...

It's just Ulfric, he's a giant [censored].

And incompetent to boot.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:14 am

Agreed. For Balgruuf especially, I think his inevitable allegiance should be determined based on either the side you choose during "Unbound", or the side of the war you have selected, especially as this is the introductory city and hold.

Balgruuf is an imperial. He's never neutral. In the Bannered Mare the bards sing the imperial song, never the Stormcloak one. He's letting Thalmor kidnap people in his city. Granted, he doesn't arrest Heimskr, but the same is true in Markarth.

The Khajiit are BLATANT thieves and mischief makers for the most part. While many of them are also good natured, it does not change the fact that others are rightfully suspicious of them. I have seen this same sentiment in both Morrowind AND Oblivion towards them. On top of this, they allied themselves with the Thalmor, the Stormcloaks most hated enemy.

The Khajiit caravan vendor tells you that soldiers are his best customers. He doesn't specify which side, and when I heard him say this he was sitting outside Windhelm, so you can assume it's Stormcloaks buying, too. So while all the cities keep the caravans out, they aren't hated despite their shady associations as you point out.

As usual, all the racist ballyhoo is just that.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:47 pm

Stormcloaks are not bad...

It's just Ulfric, he's a giant [censored].

So's Tullius.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:45 pm

So's Tullius.

Then why'd he manage to capture Ulfric?

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:20 pm

Ulfric only cares about Nords and puts every other race in danger. Uniting skyrim under a stormcloak banner is to sacrifice all other races

Sources or you're wrong.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:29 am

Then why'd he manage to capture Ulfric?

That has bearing on whether one is a [censored] or not?

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:17 am

Oh I was going off my own comment lol. Yeah they are both [censored]s.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:43 pm

Proof that the worst the Stormcloaks do is Rolf's yelling:
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/540677806137983568/63AD75954DB952886FB9C1F2482BA9D11E971C85/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/540677806137992102/3BD5FDB7A28D3C27438A47B913E87E729A4FE2E7/

Evidence suggesting that Dunmer are way more racist than anything Imperial players can suggest:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540677806138905089/87964756528BB7C0F9C46C512F5B7CD96FE3D82D/

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:31 pm

The best thing for the Thalmor is for the Stormcloaks and the Empire to beat each other down in a bloody civil war. Choose a side if you will, but either way you're just playing the part the Thalmor wants.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:09 pm

The best thing for the Thalmor is for the Stormcloaks and the Empire to beat each other down in a bloody civil war. Choose a side if you will, but either way you're just playing the part the Thalmor wants.

They clearly don't want a victor either. In the dossier on Ulfric it says a side winning is to be avoided at all costs. And keep in mind Elves take a ton longer to reproduce than Humans, and the Thalmor lost just as many men as the Empire did.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:46 pm

They clearly don't want a victor either. In the dossier on Ulfric it says a side winning is to be avoided at all costs. And keep in mind Elves take a ton longer to reproduce than Humans, and the Thalmor lost just as many men as the Empire did.

That's why they're enjoying the civil war. The longer the kids fight each other the more resources they gain and the smaller their enemy gets.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:59 pm

The best thing for the Thalmor is for the Stormcloaks and the Empire to beat each other down in a bloody civil war. Choose a side if you will, but either way you're just playing the part the Thalmor wants.

Choosing a side is definitely what the Thalmor don't want. The moment you choose a side, the war turns into a curbstomp and is over in a flash. Not good at all for their plans.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:40 pm

Choosing a side is definitely what the Thalmor don't want. The moment you choose a side, the war turns into a curbstomp and is over in a flash. Not good at all for their plans.

Both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks are fully capable warriors and strategists of battle. We know that some of the Stormcloaks are ex-Imperials who fought in the war. Regardless of which side you pick, you're still wiping out capable warriors who would be better as allies. I'm not saying that ship hasn't already sailed, but it seems like there's a better way to win a war against the Thalmor that doesn't involve cutting the number of your country's capable fighting men down by half. Unless we're all going on the premise that because you're dragonborn you could solo the Thalmor anyway. In my mind you don't win a war by first winning a war. It's always been sound strategy to divide your enemies just as they're doing.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:37 am

Both the Imperials and the Stormcloaks are fully capable warriors and strategists of battle. We know that some of the Stormcloaks are ex-Imperials who fought in the war. Regardless of which side you pick, you're still wiping out capable warriors who would be better as allies. I'm not saying that ship hasn't already sailed, but it seems like there's a better way to win a war against the Thalmor that doesn't involve cutting the number of your country's capable fighting men down by half. Unless we're all going on the premise that because you're dragonborn you could solo the Thalmor anyway. In my mind you don't win a war by first winning a war. It's always been sound strategy to divide your enemies just as they're doing.

If only the game allowed for a "take the third option" style of ending the war.

I still think high speech characters should've been able to convince both sides to sit down at the moot and work things out.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:23 am

Well I think that the race does not matter here at it's fullest. As we all saw there are both caring and ignorant racist people in EVERY race, an Imperial can side with the Stormcloaks just like a Nord could side with the empire (Rikke for example).
I think it is all a matter of personality and beliefs. Although race could change the thinking dramatically.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:16 pm

If only the game allowed for a "take the third option" style of ending the war.

I still think high speech characters should've been able to convince both sides to sit down at the moot and work things out.

That would be really cool, haha. Have a heated council debate or something with all the jarls and the generals from both factions. At least come to treaty where their smaller issues over land claims can be dealt with after the Thalmor are expelled. If the Thalmor win neither side gets anything in the end.