[Pixie]

First thread:
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1379575-stormcloaks-are-bad/

Thats just gameplay. Skyrim is about more than just what you see when you play. Its about the books you read in game and the characters you talk to. And its generally known among the people of skyrim that ulfric has straight up let dark elves die. He only cares about nords... oh and when i say nords i mean HIS NORDS (as in his stormcloak followers)

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1379575-stormcloaks-are-bad/page__view__findpost__p__20904341


Hold on. what you're saying is that story you experience isn't story, it's gameplay. So nothing you do as the Dovahkiin is canon? That makes no sense!

The fact is that the most racist thing the Stormcloaks in windhelm do is have Rolf yell in the night and threaten to have "ways to find out who you really are." You could bring up the argonians, but look at Windhelm itself. There are no spare homes besides Hjerim and Hjerim is intended for you. The Aretino house is promised to the Aretino boy when he comes of age. The only house that could be free up is that museum curios fellow, I forgot his name.

Except that the Argonians openly admit that they steal from their hosts ships. Something that Imperial players also tend to forget.

[Heather M]

Y U continue my topic at my place D:

[no_excuse]

Y U continue my topic at my place D:

I figured you wouldn't remake it. If you remake it I'll delete this one. Just pm me when you do - I tend to check the forums sporadically.

[Sweets Sweets]

Naaah just joking ;p

[Angus Poole]

First thread:
http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1379575-stormcloaks-are-bad/



http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1379575-stormcloaks-are-bad/page__view__findpost__p__20904341


Hold on. what you're saying is that story you experience isn't story, it's gameplay. So nothing you do as the Dovahkiin is canon? That makes no sense!

The fact is that the most racist thing the Stormcloaks in windhelm do is have Rolf yell in the night and threaten to have "ways to find out who you really are." You could bring up the argonians, but look at Windhelm itself. There are no spare homes besides Hjerim and Hjerim is intended for you. The Aretino house is promised to the Aretino boy when he comes of age. The only house that could be free up is that museum curios fellow, I forgot his name.

Except that the Argonians openly admit that they steal from their hosts ships. Something that Imperial players also tend to forget.

Fine, I'll admit that there's little racism in Windhelm. And there's little proof that Ulfric is racist. However there are many (Fixed)Stormcloaks supporters are racist.

I'm not saying that the empire supporters aren't but Nords as whole are xenophobia.

As to whether Stormcloaks are bad or not. I'll say once again no, both Empire and Stormcloak are a shade of grey. It depends on yur own opinions as whose actually better for Tamriel.

[Juanita Hernandez]

Now it's 6:13 am and I've had a whopping three hours of sleep, so what I'm about to post could be in error - but I don't really recall a lot of Stormcloaks being racist. The ship (maybe it's dock?) owner seemed racist, and Rolf seemed racist - and it's implied by Susanna the Wicked (who is a nord that isn't racist!) that the inn keeper is. Would you mind correcting me if I'm wrong?

[Charlotte Buckley]

my reason to side with stormcloaks:

1 - if ulfric becomes king, the dragonborn can then challenge the king as per nord customs if he thinks the current high king isn't suited for ruling skyrim. making the dragonborn a candidate for the throne and becoming the new high king while with the empire it's the empire that chooses the next high king.

2 - the empire right now excluding skyrim is just high rock and cyrodil and cyrodil is already under the thalmor's thumb.
all other countries have seceeded from the empire and uniting them again into the empire would be nigh impossible, however a coalition of independent countries under the pretense of defeating the thalmor is more probable to happen.

[Monika Fiolek]

Now it's 6:13 am and I've had a whopping three hours of sleep, so what I'm about to post could be in error - but I don't really recall a lot of Stormcloaks being racist. The ship (maybe it's dock?) owner seemed racist, and Rolf seemed racist - and it's implied by Susanna the Wicked (who is a nord that isn't racist!) that the inn keeper is. Would you mind correcting me if I'm wrong?

I never said a lot. I just pointed out that I've reached the conclusion that most nords are racist.

And perhaps we should stop debating on who's better Empire or Stormcloaks in this thread as the question is not who's better but rather is Stormcloak bad or not. And I think we can agree that the Stormcloaks are not bad just grey.

Edit : Sorry, I just woke up too, I don't notice that I wrote many Stormcloaks supporters. LOL, that was stupid of me.

[Emily Jones]

Here's a little history lesson.
For thousands of years, the Dunmer practiced slavery. They would raid other provinces (particularly Elsweyr and especially Black Marsh) and capture slaves. When Red Mountain erupted and destroyed most of Morrowind, the Argonians of Black Marsh saw their chance at revenge. They raided the remnants of Morrowind and began to wholesale slaughter every single Dunmer that they could find. The surviving Dunmer fled in the only direction they could, Skyrim.
The Nords of Skyrim and the Dunmer of Morrowind had millenia of warfare between them, and were by no means friends. Despite this, the Nords were sympathetic to the Dunmer's plight and took pity/mercy on them. They not only gave Solstheim to the Dunmer (an island that had been the subject of several wars between the Nords and Dunmer, which Skyrim had won through much bloodshed), but they also gave the Dunmer safe passage through Skyrim, and also granted them free housing, plus they didn't have to pay taxes. The Nords of Skyrim had stepped between the terrified Dunmer refugees of Morrowind and the genocidal Argonians of Black Marsh, and saved Morrowind's Dunmer from extinction.
In return, the Dunmer who live in Windhelm for free, do absolutely nothing but [censored] and moan about how they have to live in a slum. They won't even help the Nords in their conflict, when the Nords stepped in and saved the Dunmer in their time of need. Most of the Dunmer in Windhelm, are nothing but a bunch of free loaders.
This is also the reason why the Dunmer and Argonians of Windhelm are segragated. Because, they HATE each other, they want to kill each other. If they weren't segregated, there would be a vicious blood war that would paint Windhelm red. There would be blood and bodies everywhere.

If you think the Stormcloaks are a bunch of racists, you haven't seen nothing until you've played TES III: Morrowind and seen the Camonna Tong. Not only were they a bunch of highly xenophobic pricks, but they were downright murderous.

The reason why Khajiit Caravans are barred from entering any city in Skyrim, is not only because the Khajiit are infamous for trafficking in drugs (Which the Khajiit Caravans do sell Moon Sugar) and thieving, but also because Elsweyr is part of the Aldmeri Dominion, which adds even more distrust.

[Julia Schwalbe]

Here's a little history lesson.
For thousands of years, the Dunmer practiced slavery. They would raid other provinces (particularly Elsweyr and especially Black Marsh) and capture slaves. When Red Mountain erupted and destroyed most of Morrowind, the Argonians of Black Marsh saw their chance at revenge. They raided the remnants of Morrowind and began to wholesale slaughter every single Dunmer that they could find. The surviving Dunmer fled in the only direction they could, Skyrim.
The Nords of Skyrim and the Dunmer of Morrowind had millenia of warfare between them, and were by no means friends. Despite this, the Nords were sympathetic to the Dunmer's plight and took pity/mercy on them. They not only gave Solstheim to the Dunmer (an island that had been the subject of several wars between the Nords and Dunmer, which Skyrim had won through much bloodshed), but they also gave the Dunmer safe passage through Skyrim, and also granted them free housing, plus they didn't have to pay taxes. The Nords of Skyrim had stepped between the terrified Dunmer refugees of Morrowind and the genocidal Argonians of Black Marsh, and saved Morrowind's Dunmer from extinction.
In return, the Dunmer who live in Windhelm for free, do absolutely nothing but [censored] and moan about how they have to live in a slum. They won't even help the Nords in their conflict, when the Nords stepped in and saved the Dunmer in their time of need. Most of the Dunmer in Windhelm, are nothing but a bunch of free loaders.
This is also the reason why the Dunmer and Argonians of Windhelm are segragated. Because, they HATE each other, they want to kill each other. If they weren't segregated, there would be a vicious blood war that would paint Windhelm red. There would be blood and bodies everywhere.

If you think the Stormcloaks are a bunch of racists, you haven't seen nothing until you've played TES III: Morrowind and seen the Camonna Tong. Not only were they a bunch of highly xenophobic pricks, but they were downright murderous.

The reason why Khajiit Caravans are barred from entering any city in Skyrim, is not only because the Khajiit are infamous for trafficking in drugs (Which the Khajiit Caravans do sell Moon Sugar) and thieving, but also because Elsweyr is part of the Aldmeri Dominion, which adds even more distrust.

I don't really think that stormloaks are racist, rather most of the nords are.

[barbara belmonte]

I don't really think that stormloaks are racist, rather most of the nords are.

i wouldn't really say racist, more like distrustful and i can't really blame them for that. the elves and beastrace individuals that i saw who respected nordic culture were living among the nords as if kinsmen themselves. yes some are treated unfairly but i've seen enough that aren't to make me believe that racism is not the norm for nords.

[Marta Wolko]

I don't really think that stormloaks are racist, rather most of the nords are.

Stormcloaks are really just butthurt about banning Talos, and Aldmeri Dominion just sit and enyoy the pitfight between Stormcloaks and Empire

[mishionary]

Stormcloaks are really just butthurt about banning Talos, and Aldmeri Dominion just sit and enyoy the pitfight between Stormcloaks and Empire

Yes well, to be fair to be mad because the banning of Talos is a valid reason I'll be mad too if my religion banned.

However, according to Alvor the ban was only truly enforced when Ulfric make a big fuss about it. If anyone can prove this wrong then maybe I'll consider switching sides.

[Rhiannon Jones]

Yes well, to be fair to be mad because the banning of Talos is a valid reason I'll be mad too if my religion banned.

However, according to Alvor the ban was only truly enforced when Ulfric make a big fuss about it. If anyone can prove this wrong then maybe I'll consider switching sides.

I don't know that it's wrong perse, but Ulfric was manipulated in the war to begin with. He was captured and made to believe that he escaped. No doubt that you'd try to get back rights you lost if you were in the same scenario.

[Sarah Knight]

Korbu's anolysis seems accurate. Racism isn't just a Nordic thing. Racism has been a part of every game since Daggerfall at least (in which people would randomly throw out racial slurs). I don't think Nords are "racist" so much as "insular". Anyone can come to Skyrim and make their home there, but they can't expect to be automatically accepted. I suspect even Nords who come from other provinces and don't yet have deep communal ties have difficulties initially. And while Nords would certainly have an easier time blending in, pretty much anybody can make it in Skyrim so long as they, as Niranye of Windhelm put it, "prove themselves useful and make the right friends." Even in Windhelm.

Nords look racist? Compared to the Dunmer of Vvardenfell prior to the Oblivion Crisis, the Nords look like New England anti-slavery activists. I think the problem the Dunmer of Windhelm have isn't Nord racism; it's their own. In their own land, non-Dunmer who don't have powerful Imperial protectors are held down, and they just act under the assumption that things work the same here... and thus never really even try to break out of their ghetto. They self-isolate, and thus make themselves vulnerable to the kinds of bullies that use things like race as an excuse for behavior they'd find another excuse for if race wasn't available.

[benjamin corsini]

I don't know that it's wrong perse, but Ulfric was manipulated in the war to begin with. He was captured and made to believe that he escaped. No doubt that you'd try to get back rights you lost if you were in the same scenario.

I'm not questioning Ulfric's motive. Rather if before Ulfric make a fuss the term was not enforced then it prove that itwas merely a ploy.

If term is enforced before that however that'll prove that it was not a ploy and the Empire truly bow down to the Dominion at that signing of the concordat.

[C.L.U.T.C.H]

I'm not questioning Ulfric's motive. Rather if before Ulfric make a fuss the term was not enforced then it prove that itwas merely a ploy.

If term is enforced before that however that'll prove that it was not a ploy and the Empire truly bow down to the Dominion at that signing of the concordat.

It has been enforced by Thalmor agents since the Markarth Incident in 4E 176. That was 25 YEARS prior to the start of the game. It's not a new development resulting from the current unrest, the "current unrest" is the result of 25 years of Nords being spied on, abducted, tortured and killed by agents of an admittedly hostile government who are in Skyrim with Imperial support and protection.

Was there a "fuss" at the time of the Markarth Incident? Oh yes, because the Jarl of the Reach promised free Talos worship to a group of Nord warriors in return for their assistance in getting his hold back from the Forsworn. The Nord militia was led by Ulfric Stormcloak. They got Markarth and the Reach back for the Jarl and his family, and were allowed to worship Talos in the city according to the Jarl's order. Until the Thalmor heard about it and complained to the Empire, and the Empire complained to the Jarl, and the Jarl turned Ulfric and the others over to the Imperial authorities who sent them to prison for worshipping Talos. The Jarl, who violated the WGC by making it "legal" in his city to do that, kept his freedom and his throne. The secessionist movement grew out of the "fuss" surrounding this incident and its outcome.

[Kevin Jay]

the jarl promised freedom and protection in retaking markarth. Ulfric grew up wiyh the polotics of skyrim and knewthat at the end of retaking the city that the empire would not honor the deal that a empire loyal jarl promised, so he held the city which he knew was very important to the empire so that it would agree also with the terms he was given.
He knew after retaking the city, the empire would have came in and said the deal was not authorized and ulfric and his men would bled getting that city for nothing.

The thing thats sad is that the slayings of towns people was thrown onto Ulfric when in fact it was the jarl himself who was behind the citizens slayings.

Then u got the duel which is a legal tradition in skyrim for starting the moot and also like to point out is legal in hammerfell, morrowind, and the very empire itself. The empire did not like the outcome of the duel and yet again annouced Ulfric to be a murderer.

Ulfric did npt start the civil war, he started the moot. The empire started the civil war and was the first to bare blades when they went against the law and pronouced a legal action illegal and tried to execute Ulfric on the pure bases thats hes not an empire man and they want someone whos fully behind the empire as high king.

[Chloe Lou]

Another thing worth noting (not sure if it was mentioned in the first thread) is that upon completion of the Stormclock campaign, the Thalmor and Imperials are removed from Skyrim, and Ulfric talks of rebuilding and strengthening Skyrim, for either defense of their homeland from their enemies (Thalmor) or to take the fight to those that would oppress others (hinting at willingness to aid the Empire drive back the Thalmor when Skyrim has had a chance to regroup).

While it is true there is some racism from SOME Stormcloak supporters, I have seen some equally distasteful (sometimes more so) behaviour from the Imperials, including one act we all get to see early on. ("Screw the list!")

I was having trouble deciding between the two sides, but I think I can say I would support the Stormcloaks. They have had their religion banned, they are being persecuted by a foreign race who views them as inferior, they have no say in their governing or problems, and the Empire offers at best a "Maybe Later" attitude towards the Thalmor. I would be rightfully angry as well. When you ask your government (whether monarchy or democracy or dictatorship) for help, or for freedom and rights that have been taken away, and they deny you, they are no longer your government. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying just because a government does something you disagree with, you should rise up, but if they take away your freedom, religion, or culture from you, there is a serious problem)

Additionally, I saw someone post a quote from Benjamin Franklin: (not an American myself, but I couldn't agree with it more)

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

This is what the Empire has done. They have sold out their people, instead of fighting to their last breath to protect them. The Redguards/Hammerfell did this, and Skyrim (Ulfric and his Stormcloaks) is/are trying to do this.

[Angelina Mayo]

They came for the "non-pure" of the altmer and I said nothing.
Then they came for the Bosmer, and I said nothing.
They turned the Khajiit against me, and still I said nothing.
My neighbors fought bloody fueds leaving two of them homeless, and still I did nothing.

They came to my front door and demanded things of me, and I protested, but eventually gave in to all of the demands. I told them about my friends the Redguards and that they could have them instead.

They are no longer on speaking terms with me.

My best friends are now arguing about what a traitor I am.

Why don't they trust me?

[Hot]

Hi there calvin65! How are you?

Additionally, I saw someone post a quote from Benjamin Franklin: (not an American myself, but I couldn't agree with it more)


This is what the Empire has done. They have sold out their people, instead of fighting to their last breath to protect them. The Redguards/Hammerfell did this, and Skyrim (Ulfric and his Stormcloaks) is/are trying to do this.

Not even that, I'm affraid. The decadent Empire is blatantly incompetetnt. Look at the state of their forts, the condition the roads are in, the fact there's wild beasts roaming around freely 2 minutes away from major cities, let alone small towns. The Empire provides close to zero of the services a powerful rule would while at the same time oppresses as hough it was one. It has had its chance and it has failed miserably. It's time for the opposition to rise and take power.

[Donald Richards]

They came for the "non-pure" of the altmer and I said nothing.
Then they came for the Bosmer, and I said nothing.
They turned the Khajiit against me, and still I said nothing.
My neighbors fought bloody fueds leaving two of them homeless, and still I did nothing.

They came to my front door and demanded things of me, and I protested, but eventually gave in to all of the demands. I told them about my friends the Redguards and that they could have them instead.

They are no longer on speaking terms with me.

My best friends are now arguing about what a traitor I am.

Why don't they trust me?

Wow hit nail on the head there didnt ya? Thats good enuf for sig there.

[Hussnein Amin]

Hi there Cecilff2. Cool you're around.

They came for the "non-pure" of the altmer and I said nothing.
Then they came for the Bosmer, and I said nothing.
They turned the Khajiit against me, and still I said nothing.
My neighbors fought bloody fueds leaving two of them homeless, and still I did nothing.

They came to my front door and demanded things of me, and I protested, but eventually gave in to all of the demands. I told them about my friends the Redguards and that they could have them instead.

They are no longer on speaking terms with me.

My best friends are now arguing about what a traitor I am.

Why don't they trust me?

Would you be paraphrasing Martin Niem?ller ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came%E2%80%A6 ) sometimes confused with Bertold Brest?

[Brandon Bernardi]

Yep, hit the nail on the head.

[Carys]

Yep, hit the nail on the head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pe1de7sFnc