If killing thousands of faceless mooks makes a game deep, Call of Duty would be the deepest game in the world.

Well those happen no matter what you do, pretty much small linear impact. There seems to be NOTHING you impact based on actual choice. I kill the Emperor in the DB quest and nothing happens afterwards which is pretty sad.

The first time I played this game, I killed Astrid in the shack (and it wasn't easy - took me 4 tries). i did this expecting to spend the rest of the game looking over my shoulder for assassins trying to kill me; avenging her death. But no, nothing happened. Other then getting another quest to kill everyone else in the DB (which, by the way, was TOO easy to do).

And it gets worse. I completed the MQ line. Then I decide to try the Companions. It was like I never existed. Despite me saving the world, killing tons of dragons and having considerably better gear then any NPC in that hall, I still get - "Run up to the forge and get a batter weapon than "THAT" you are carrying" (something to that effect). What do i get from the BS at the Skyforge? A steel sword. Despite the fact I'm wearing dragon scale armor and carrying enchanted ebony blades. LOL

What, are you kidding me? This game is like playing a MMO but without the other players. Nothing really changes. Nothing. All the quests line are independent of each other. And no matter what you do, nothing effects anything.

I remember early in the game, a random dragon attack in Riverwood. I and the guards manage to kill the dragon. I absorbed the dragons power. And for like 10 secs the town folk stood there in amazement. calling me the Dragonborn. Ok good. What I would expect. But I leave town, come back the next day. Nothing. I over-hear a guard saying something like "..maybe I'm the dragonborn...". And the dragon bones are still in the middle of the town. None of the town folk are giving it a second thought. I was like nothing ever happened. And indeed if you ask around town, nothing did. Not one NPC mentioned anything about the dragon laying in the street.

When i play a "single player game" I expect more. I expect my actions to have an effect. While this game is beautiful (which is why I'm still playing it - mostly to explore everything) it has no soul. Nothing you do will effect anything else. Expect deny or grant you other quests. Which also have no effect on the game.

Now you might not care. And that's the problem. This game you really don't care about anything. Cause nothing matters. If I run around killing everyone in a town, there should be a reaction beisdes me paying a fine. Please.. Until I make amends no one in the town (and surrounding towns) should talk to me and the guard should attack me on sight. And there should be a series of quests that allow me to make amends. Right now, it's like playing a shooter video game.

Or. I chose to fight for the empire. I had just beat back the Stormcloaks at Whiterun, But I had to run to Windhelm for something (I forgot why). I was worried, expecting the guards to attack me sight. So I waited until night and starting sneaking in. Until I released I just wasted my time. I had nothing to worry about since nothing matters in the game. I even walked right up to Ulfic (in his castle), the NPC I had an hour earlier delivered the Axe of War. And nothing. LOL

So I'll play this game until something else comes along. Cause I really don't care about anything. Expect the world. That the dev's did a great job on. The game is beautiful. And I love the lore. But the game-play itself svcks. This game is VERY shallow.

Adding nuclear explosions, rainbow-farting ponies or a slap by your mother will?

You only have not realized what it means for a game to be deep. You are too insensitive and this is why you need big impacts.

The game is so shallow it is sad, What happens at the end of the main quest? Nothing. you stand on a mountain for a few mins watch some dragons fly bye and then nothing. Dragons still appear like nothing happened.

How about all the factions queslintes?

Yea every faction questline is short and you become leader after about 8 quests and then do radiant quests after that. Shallow and predictable.

Even when you kill the emperor nothing happens, Why not tree off a dozen quest off of that? You'd think maybe someone might be after you for doing that. Hey maybe you don't kill him and then the DB turns on you? See in that sense you make a choice and depending on what choice you make something different happens.

Nothing major really.

So tell then, what did you expect if it is all just shallow to you?

That I had become arch mage as a warrior was not something I would call predictable, not even close. I accepted it, as if it was a plot written by Terry Prachett, and I find it just as amusing.

Actually it all has an impact, but what you fail to realize is that the effects of your actions will take time to actually come to fruition. Possible DLC, who knows. Just because it lacks the instant gratification your attitude seems to denote needing, doesnt mean it is shallow. Skyrim is deep for those whose attention spans last more than 5 minutes and can read into what is actually occurring in these events.

Though I'm enjoying the game, I have to agree with those calling it 'shallow'. Not enough of your decisions matter or have consequences. Don't get me wrong, it's still fun and enjoyable, but definitely Beth emphasized size of the world over deep plot lines.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What makes a game deep is story, and what makes a story deep is character and theme. Now, don't get me wrong, I quite enjoy this game, and its overall story, but I do agree that the actions you take don't really have much of an impact on the story. When I defeat Alduin, there's no real celebration or fanfare. The only people who actually mention it are Paarthunax, the Greybeards and a few guards. Killing the Emperor doesn't throw the Imperial Legion into shock and disarray, nor does it spurn the Stormcloaks to press an offensive. If you do the Dark Brotherhood quest before starting the Thieves Guild, Maven still talks like she can have Astrid sending assassins your way with the stroke of a pen. The world is largely static, and even when you do things that alter the fate of history, very few people ever take notice or comment on it.

Largely this is due to an overwhelming lack of character in the protagonist. The protagonist has absolutely no character whatsoever, because he/she is an avatar for you through and through. You get to decide everything about the protagonist, age, six, race, hair, body type, and everything about the character's hopes, dreams, and fears. This is a good thing for role playing, but it makes for weak characterization because characterization then becomes the responsibility of the player. Now, if this was just you writing your own story that'd be fine, but you're having to write your own story while fighting with the story of the game. You can't have long conversations with the characters, and your relationships never expand beyond either "Yay! We're friends!" or "Boo! You're mean!"

That's not to say that games that don't offer much in characterization of the protagonist can't be deep, it just becomes so much more important to properly define and characterize the rest of the cast. Bioshock did this to great effect. The main character never says a word throughout his adventure in Rapture, but Atlas, Tennabum, Andrew Ryan, and everyone else is so well defined and interesting that you get enveloped in it anyway. The difference is Bioshock is very narrative driven, and as such is incredibly linear, but that makes you stay in constant contact with the characters, and you really get to know them. Alduin shows up in 4 or 5 quests, and doesn't really do anything but either fly away from you or try to kill you.

I'm not pinning this on Bethesday. While it's true that they wrote the game's story, they wrote it knowing that fans wanted to roll play and create their own stories, so they had to have the most basic of plotlines for the overall questlines. If this had been more narrative driven people would be complaining because they don't have the freedom they come to expect. Since they have that freedom, which to put it simply, is to do nearly anything they want in any order they want, they get upset because Bethesda didn't program ten million different ways for this story to progress, depending on which route the player went.

I'm not talking about the lore or the game world. Those are deep and beautiful. The quests lines are not. After killing the emperor (I was running the DB quests at the same time i was running the civil war) - you telling me that wouldn't be a game changing event? Not in some DLC but immediate? Something like that should change the course of the civil war. The quest line should change. You kidding me?

This is just one of MANY examples of the shallowness of this game.

Oh please that is part of the predictability, you can become leader of every faction at the same time and EVERY factions quesltine plays out exactly the same, do 8 or so simple quests, become leader, do radiant quests afterwards. Shallow

Main ques ending, stand on mountain look at dragons fly bye, have a nice day nothing you did effected the world- Shallow

Civil war- nothing happens after your done -Shallow

The game seems like it was built to prevent you from making any choices that have a lasting or different impact on the world. --Shallow

I mean you kill the freakin Emperor and nothing is effected afterwards, all the immediate possibilities of what impact that has on the world are just completely ignored like everything else happening in this game. This event should have had a major impact on the Civil war questline at the very least.

Because the game cant have an immediate reaction to everything you do doesnt make it shallow. You kill the emperor which will have an impact, but it would realistically take time for that news to make it back to the imperial city and then to spread. Yes it would affect the war but more likely in terms of pure morale for both sides. The issue is that they cant make a specific result for the massive multitude of options you are given. It gives a "To be continued..." vibe but not a shallow vibe.

I'm pretty sure the Civil War and killing/not killing Paarthurnax are the only "choices" you have in the game... though there's really no "I don't want to kill P" option.. you recieve the quest and decide to never do it if you don't want to.

You have got the wrong picture. Just because one man kills another man does this not start a war. It is not realistic. People do not start killing each other over one death. Killing a lead figure will neither start or stop a war. There are too many who are willing to step up and to take the place and to continue with a war. Without such people, who share the view of their leaders, can one not start a war either. What is then true for war is true for peace, too. One death will not make others give up peace and look for war.

All your actions will always only have small impacts unless it is something like the nuclear bomb. And even the nuclear bomb was not just the work of one man but of hundreds of researchers and thousands of workers to make it happen (all who were paid by the government).

It is not as simple as you think it is and this is what you need to see before you can judge a game and say that it is shallow.

In Skyrim can you become friends with many characters and they will say things like "Khajiit feels warm from your presence." Many NPCs will change the way they talk after you have done something for them. Games that give you the illusion it takes only one or two decisions to become king and have everyone like you are shallow. If you notice it is a different matter.

Obviously you didn't pay attention to what I said at all. I didn't say killing the Emperor should end the war, I said that it should demoralize the Imperial soldiers and make the Stormcloaks go on the offensive to capitalize on the lowered morale of the Legion. The fact that the soldiers aren't affected that their leader was murdered and that their enemies don't take advantage of this is unrealistic. And as for no one going to war over one death... Archduke Ferdinand. Or for the sake of Skyrim's story: High King Torygg.

I quite enjoy the process of befriending NPCs in this game because it gives me something to do. I'm sad that after I do one thing that pretty much sums up my interaction with them, but I do like the idea of being a wanderer befriending as many people as possible.

For the record, I don't really consider Skyrim shallow because I get something out of it. I don't get anything out of Uncharted or Call of Duty, so those I consider shallow. At the same time, Skyrim doesn't give me enough for me to say it's deep. It's a great game with a functioning storyline that I enjoy. I don't think the story is as polished as games that focus more on narrative and character development (Bioshock, Red Dead Redemption), but I like the story and it works for me. I just wish that the world took notice when something huge happens. Since you seem fixated on nuclear bombs for some reason I'll say run with that. The assassination of the Emperor is akin to a nuclear bomb going of: It's something that everyone's going to be talking about because it is a groundshaking event in terms of the political climate of the game, and even if you wanted to say something like "Well Stormcloak cities wouldn't talk about it because they don't think they're part of the Empire," I'd argue that they most certainly would talk about it because the leader of their enemy just died.

No, I did pay attention to what you have said. I explained to you that it is not this simple. What makes you think killing the Emporer will demoralize the Imperials? It could just as well work the other way around and infuriate them. The problem is that you expect it to have some greater effect when you do not really know what is going to happen. Who then put the Emporer into place? What makes you think he will not just be replaced by somebody else?

But here's the thing: There's two or three people who react to it... and no one else. The world doesn't take notice in the slightest. We're talking about the leader of an entire empire here, and only a handful of people even mention it. Look what happened when Whitney Houston died. Even the people who didn't listen to her were talking about her death. I'm not saying the entire populace should enter an extended period of mourning, but I want them to react. They could be sad, they could be happy, they could be infuriated. I don't care! I just want them to acknowledge what's happened in their world.

And of course he's going to be replaced. I never said he wouldn't. But that's something that should be mentioned in the game. Someone should mention any heirs that Titus might have had, or the fact that he doesn't and now things are going to get that much worse because there's no one with a legitimate claim to the throne, and there's probably going to be even more infighting in the lands of men. But the game doesn't do that. It treats the death of the Emperor the same as me gathering 10 Fire Salts for a blacksmith. I do it, and some people go "Oh. That happened," and that's the end of it. And that works for the small things like fetch quests, but not on the bigger ones. It's the same with some of the questlines, such as the Companions. I become Harbinger, and there's still some faceless soldier talking about how my job's to "fetch the mead." That's showing that my actions had very little impact, especially when loading screens tell what a big deal being Harbinger is. I become it, and the very people who are supposed to respect that mouth off and call me the newbie. It doesn't make sense.

I'm starting to think they're might be a language barrier here, and I don't mean that as an insult. It really seems that something is not getting across or we are trying to talk about the same topic but each of us has a different idea of what that topic is. I'm saying that I feel the events of the game should be registered by the NPCs on a greater level, and you seem to think that they shouldn't because there's someone else who could become Emperor.

There are many other examples. I mentioned a few in my other posts. But lets talk about the civil war. I delivered the axe to Ulfic. After his forces are defeated at Whiterun, I go back to Windhelm. And guess what.. nothing. I stood in his throne room, even spoke to his LT, and still nothing. Are you kidding me?

Look I love this game. But connecting the dots is not one of it's strong points. It's not really a role playing game. it's move of an open world, waiting for modders to do their work.

World War I. The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand kicked off a chain of events that made nations topple like dominoes into the bloodiest war in world history up to that time.

The question is, what actual things could be implemented that would create differences in Skyrim; and is it technologically feasible to do so?

It's unfair to characterize the entire game as shallow because as far as I know, you can't put every single idea you want to into anything. You try to keep the best things but that doesn't keep other good ideas from being eliminated. It's a matter of necessity.

The world carries on, the cowboy rides into the sunset, and there is no TV and no press to make a profit from feeding stories to the masses.

You talk like a gamer who wants to win the game. I do not think anyone can help you there.

Wait for the next TES title and see how the story continues. Maybe you become the next emporer. Who knows.

He does not care for you. You are only a foot soldier in his game of Jarls. Some find it wrong to become a thane and then still being disrespected by the town folks. But why should they change? They may only not see it as important as you do. Does a title mean that much? Being a thane does allow one to commit a crime in a city and get away with it when you mention to the guards who you are. It is not obvious, but there it is an impact. You get a house carl and one can buy a house. The Thieves Guild will still call you a protégé even after you have become their guild leader. To me is this only a bug. You still have an impact on most of the people in Skyrim. This is where it matters. Your impact does not come from a dialogue, telling you that you made an impact, a high score or player ranking, but it comes from hard work and in small steps.

Nonsense. The people wanted war, they would have taken anything for a reason to start it, and one world war was not enough for them either. The second world war followed quickly.

mmmmm lets see, i broke into peoples houses and stole valubles from them and they hired goons to track me down and rough me up, i do soemthign nice for people and they give me stuff or let me take or sleep at thier houses, i get commented all the time about alot of random stuff that i do, i kill an innocent ive been sent goons after me/had love ones run in fear from me/inherited thier belongings, lets see umm ive done soem bad stuff to people where thye tell me that im dispicable or to get out, ive gotten the Tg back on thier feet and everyone is again in fear of them, lets see i become thanes and people talk nicely or kiss my ass now, mmmm i get caught killing/thieving/shouting guards coem after me, i kill alot of imperials they start attacking me on sight, after i did a certain quest the random thalmors atk me on sight, ummm if i do soemthing nice for a town i get random gifts and praise form them...

do i need to go on? as far as the MQ goes, it was all about Alduin...that was it. Hell most people havent even seen a dragon only heard about it and he did raise alot of dragons, just because i killed/banished Alduin dosent make them all disappear and i dont really remember my tooon going into every town and yelling that "hey theres one badass dragon that im gonna take care of". to the general population one dragon is like any other and i do get reconition for killing the random ones...alas no one was there in soverngarde as far as the genrral population to know i did that.

also the game aint over with yet, theres gonna be more and im sure some of those quests that had dicisions that u chose different sides will impact those...at least im hoping and praying...

I think the choice my friend made of killing every killable character in Skyrim is a pretty big decision