I love the people who are all sarcastic about the fact that they're dumb. Cause if you remove the /sarcasm, they tend to make valid points.

You realize you don't have to fast travel, right?

For me, it's just the opposite. My quest marker pops up, doing nothing more than making it so I don't have to constantly, tediously, open up the map to get my bearings in relation to where I'm going. I follow the quest marker, yes, but considering that the map isn't just a flat, empty field, going straight towards the quest marker does nothing. It does nothing to help me get past the obstacles put in my way, and more often than not, I have to find a long way around a certain obstacle to get to where I'm going because the terrain doesn't allow me to run a straight line from A to B. This leads to tons of "going off the beaten trail", and encountering unexpected circumstances and situations, often in the form of a newly discovered town or dungeon, or a random encounter with an NPC.

The quest markers have done nothing to destroy the exploration and adventure element of the game for me. But I dunno, I guess it's because I actually still want to experience exploring the world, and feeling a sense of adventure, so I go and get it, instead of just "fast travel, get on horse, press C, hold down the alt key, and charge towards marker"

I guess I just know how to Elder Scrolls.

This is what I have been saying since Oblivion was released. IMO it is like the old saying, "Too many cooks in the Kitchen, Spoil the Soup". That is exactly what has happened to TES games since Morrowind.

It's not about exploring or restricting yourself while you play to add immersion.

It is about the fact that you could literally turn of the sound, never read a line of text and complete every quest in the game...

Furthermore, when you try to engage your brain, by turning off quest markers, the directions you get from NPC's are often times so vague you have no idea where to even start looking for whatever.

The quest log is there to remind you each play session what it is you need to do, not be a descriptive journal of every interaction you make.

It serves its purpose quite well.

lol, it's funny because you're supposed to find the clues (the stones above the ones you turn that tell you exactly which one your supposed to turn it to...), but when you think about it, it's 27 freaking combinations. You could almost randomly guess it. Must be some handicapped dungeon divers in Skyrim.

Just stop.

The rot actually started with oblivion contrary to what some are saying about being able to do quests without the pizza slice.

If anything it was worse in oblivion because of facetious quest pop ups every time you sneezed (I have arrived at the cave - I should go in, I have entered the cave - I should kill the baddie, I have killed the baddie - I should read the book, I have read the book - I should go here next...how about actually letting me read the book to see what to do rather than having a quest pop up etc).

Still the Skyrim system is sub par and typical Bethesda fashion of removing a feature rather than improving or fixing it. People complained about poor directions in morrowind and Howard et al acknowledged this in an interview and said they needed to fix it. So they chucked all directions out and put the pizza slice in.

This.

I agree. In some cases you can try to use the names of cities or characters on the quest log to get to it without a marker. But some other times, you need to either keep real life notes of every conversation, or you can simply get lost. I like adventuring and don't try to complete quest after quest, so for now, after 65 hours, I still have no problem moving within Solitude and Whiterun, doing stuff here and there. But I also have quests pointing to places that I wouldn't be able to find unless activating the map marker.

Yesterday I got a quest form an NPC that only said something like this: "Please help me get back my gem", or something like that. Then a quest log was added: "Retrieve the gem from cave X". I don't want the cave name. I would appreciate something like "a cave near the giant camp". I don't have problem looking for it.


If you like adventuring, why don't you do so? You don't HAVE to use fast-travel if you don't want. I don't like the quest marker either, that's why I hardly ever activate the quests. Just disable them on the journal. If you are not sure where the target is, you can always use your map before going in the journey. If I have to go to some towers north of a city, I check the destination, try to memorize the path (follow the river here, cross it there, then east...), and then I adventure without the marker. Some times I don't even get to the quest point because I found entertainment on my way there, and sometimes I even have to get back to town because I have too much weight, and leave that quest for some other day. So you can adventure if you want.

Another example of adventuring is what happened to me yesterday (I liked it a lot). I was on Solitude catacombs. After a long way in, I ended up exiting on a backdoor that headed right to a snowy mountain. I had no idea where I was, because I couldn't see Solitude anywhere. I walked and walked (yeah, I walk, not run), and made to a lighthouse. I climbed it and from the roof I was able to see Solitude. I was glad, because I was pretty sure the city was on the other way. But it was really a fun and rewarding situation. I just forced myself to not open the map.

For Blood on the Ice, I got stuck from the blasted quest markers telling me to investigate the crime scene, and I couldn't figure out where to go next. It also told me to get help from Jorleif, but talking to him did nothing. The markers were so screwed up I was convinced it was a broken quest. If you're still stuck on it, I finally figured it out:


I miss the way I could go back in my old journals and see what the quest-giver said, and I hate having to rely so heavily on the markers, especially when they hold your hand sometimes and lead to to a seeming dead end others. If there's an attainable journal in the quest, read it; they help a lot and might even allow you to fore-go the markers. I use some metagame logic to figure out how to proceed on some of these, and it's largely because the marker system is so inconsistent-but-oft-necessary.

Obviously you haven't played Oblivion or Morrowind.

I prefer that way better than Skyrim's. Skyrim's is pretty pointless.

Oblivion told what you were doing, why you were doing, who you spoke to already, and gave the journal flavor as well by making it seem like your character was actually writing a journal of their quest and the outcomes.

Yeah, the ability to turn the GPS off is just an ability to turn the GPS off. You still need it to know anything other than what you're currently doing. "Bring X amount Y to Z"

Yeah, it really svcks that a lot of "RPGs" don't have much contextual information and character interactions and stuff, but maybe some overhaul mod will readd a journal and add descriptions to everything.

OP is 100% right.

The reason it hardly ever gives you directions is because a lot of the time the location changes every time you play. (for the most part)

I'm really enjoying Skyrim for the most part, but some aspects have been so grossly over simplified that I'm really starting to think Bethesda is aggressively targeting the preschooler market.


Can't read? No problem, just follow the magic arrow.
Can't logic out a puzzle? No problem, just make these 3 objects match these other 3.
Can't focus on a task for more than 15 minutes? No problem, you'll be Arch-Mage in 12.

When I first got Skyrim I was concerned about this not being fixed, as it was one of my main gripes with Oblivion. I'd read that the GPS markers could be turned off, so I was hoping for the best... When I booted up the game, I immediately went into Options, found that you could disable markers, and was pretty happy.

In my first play-through I went down to Riverwood. I did the Golden Claw quest for the trader, and I actually got directions to Bleak Falls Barrow! Similarly, Alvor gave me directions to Whiterun - "walk North along the path, turn left once you reach the meadery". I was so relieved! It seemed like Bethesda actually paid attention to their fans and gave us what we asked for.

But then I quickly realized that those two quests are pretty much the exception. It was very apparent that the vast majority of quest-givers don't supply you with any sort of useful directions. In fact, in many cases, the situation is a lot worse than it was in Oblivion. Now I have quest-givers tell me to "go fetch the staff" - literally just that - they don't tell me who has it, where I could find, NOTHING. I'm forced to use the quest-marker much more often than not.

This is made worse by the fact that the journal has now been completely removed and replaced with an FPS-style quest log. The misc. quest section is especially terrible. It gets filled up pretty quickly with useless headlines and almost no information.
"Kill bandits in [cave]."
"Go see [person]."
"Deliver [item] to [person]."
...
In a game full of [cave]s, [person]s and [item]s, this is totally and utterly useless! When I first started playing I thought my game was glitching because I couldn't click on the misc. quests to expand them!

What a total disappointment after such a promising start.

What happened? Did they start off with the intention of giving us quest directions but then decided they didn't have enough time to voice everything in time for their beloved 11-11-11 release date? They could have at least provided us with written directions or something... Would it really have been that difficult? It's hardly a day's work for one person.

For the most part? You mean for radiant quests... You know, it's actually pretty easy to give at least written directions for randomly-generated quests. The NPCs could have handed you a piece of paper with more information. I mean, for some radiant quests, like the bounty ones, you already get a piece of paper anyway!

In any case, what about all those non-radiant quests? Still no directions for most of them...

Why isn't it called a 'quest log' in the game then? Do I have to point out (or just repeat the points made above) that such kind of 'quest log' is a terrible solution in a RPG game?

This is how the quest system should work.
You find a note somewhere, indicating that somewhere in the X cave something interesting is going on. You have no clue where to go at this point. So, you go ask a NPC. Not every one of them would be knowledgeable enough, but at least some of the smarter ones would point you to some other NPC, who they think he has some geography knowledge. Now, he might, or might not know. If not, he'd point you to a collegue of his, sharing his interest of places.
For simpler, more common quests, simpler directions would suffice.

Also, regarding generic bandits someone mentioned above, I think their lack of names is actually more realistic feature. How are you supposed to know a name of some dead bandit after he jumped on you from the bushes?

Yes, this is absolutely the worst quest log since Daggerfall.
In fact, Daggerfall had a better quest log.

I just do not know what they were thinking.

It's definitely the most disappointing feature in the game for me. The miscellaneous quest section is the worst; I can never remember what half of those are about.

I couldn't have said it better. I have no problem finding my way to anything.

I am posting to say that despite what others have been saying above, it IS possible to play without quest-markers and the compass, even with such a useless in-game journal (I am not claiming that it is better to play the game without markers; just that it is possible if you are that way inclined).

I play without compass, without any quest markers, and without using the in-game map: I am level 23 and maybe half-way (?) through the main game I think. However, it is absolutely necessary to keep a detailed paper journal as you play the game; the in-game journal is merely a reminder of your main quests, and not a journal per se. Often the NPCs giving the quests will say something like ‘the cave to the west’ or the ‘the cave nearby’, and you have to quickly write that down. I find most NPCs often give a fair amount of information if you listen very carefully, and there are often clues in the name. Towers are often visible from far away, portal-stones (marking tombs and shrines), flags and small cairns are usually visible from roads.

However, it is certain that this is not an easy way to play. Most miscellaneous quests are extremely difficult to complete, but surprisingly, perhaps, I have completed many of them by random exploration. Main game quests are usually better explained (although I have had trouble with the companion line – thinking of cheating on this one; looking for ‘Northwatch tower’ and have examined most of the northern border of Whiterun and most of the northern coast without success…). Not using the in game map (I use the paper map) means that I spend a lot of time getting lost and finding new sites (which I can inevitably never find again later).

One other important aspect of playing without using the quest markers/compass/in-game journal is that I have not come across many of the problems with broken quests that other players have. For example, I completed the famously glitched ‘Blood on the Ice’ quest without issue, since I had to carefully listen to all the NPCs and write down all the clues as they told me them. Even if there were hundreds of glitches and bugs in that quest, I would never have noticed them due to my style of playing.

Finally, the other good thing about playing this way is the replayability: since I will only ever complete about 15% of the game’s quests, my second runthrough should feel newish.

It's not even a journal, it's an objectives menu now.
"Speak to [Person]" Ok, what do I know about this person, and why am I seeking him/her out? Did I forget something? Details, I need details.
It can be a long while from the point of picking up a quest to eventually doing it, I'd like to be reminded what it was about.
Compared to Morrowind and Oblivion's journal system this one has lost all it's personality and immersion (yes, that word).

This isn't the point. The problem is not that the quest marker shows you the exact path on how to get to where you are going. All of us have to run around the mountain or cliff or city that is between us and where we are going. The problem is that the quest marker tells you where you need to be going in the first place. The problem is that, without said quest marker, there's no way to figure it out on your own.

Sure, some quests give you the name of a place and then put it on your map. If the person that gave you the name knows where the place is, that makes sense. However, some of the time you get the name of a place from an NPC that is asking you to find it, yet it appears on your map anyway. Why do that? You just removed half the quest, namely, finding this place. I don't need to find it, it's marked. Why can't I ask a person or two about the place and see if anyone knows where it is? Heck, you could even add NPCs to the world that are just explorers and adventurers, or even cartographers, that you go to in order to ask where obscurely named places might be found. (Or use the guards! They all used to be adventurers, right? Before that knee surgery?) But, sadly, there's nothing like that.

Worse than that, quests that ask you to find an NPC don't usually give you enough information to find the NPC in any way other than either searching every building in a city, or using the quest marker. There's no way to ask about a person that you are supposed to be finding, and then get some information on the buildings they like to hang out in. In a game where every NPC has a schedule, you wouldn't think it would be that hard for the occasional beggar or bartender to know where quest NPCs like to hang out. Why we can't ask, and have to use the homing beacon from Heaven is beyond me. That, again, defeats the whole fun in trying to find the person, as you really already know where they are.

And yet worse again, are quests that ask you to find some long-lost thing. If you activate the quest, you get a pointer showing you exactly where in the world this legendary, long lost object that nobody knows where it is... is. Again, wtf?

So it's not about knowing how to "Elder Scrolls," whatever that is supposed to mean. It's not about figuring out how to walk around something instead of through it. It's about taking steps in searching for something, instead of always being told exactly where it is.