Due to threads about Steam/DRM in Bethesda games being scattered in many game sections across the forum which makes it very difficult to moderate and the number of problems in each one, we have decided
to have one thread for the discussion for everyone to discuss various forms of DRM/Steam in one place.

At the present we have no information about what DRM future games being published by Bethesda will have. There has been no formal announcement about it so this thread is merely for expressing your thoughts on various possibilities and expressing your thoughts about Steam and/or other DRM options which may be used.

The following rules will apply to this thread as well as all forum rules already in place.

1. No flaming, attacking or demeaning one another for their opinion about Steam/DRM (pro or con)
2. Any encouragement of piracy will result in a warning and temporary suspension of your account. Admission of piracy will result in a ban. This includes circumventing DRM of any kind.
3. Repeated posts by the same member to say the same thing can be considered spam and result in a warning against your account.

Rage has been confirmed to use Steamworks.

Skyrim has been confirmed to use Steamworks.


One of the frequent complaints about Steam is that it can't be played offline. We are providing a link for instructions to do so. If it will not work for you, please contact Steam to assist with the issue.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1179634-unofficial-steamdrm-thread
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1205658-unofficial-steamdrm-thread
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1221134-unofficial-steamdrm-thread
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1222228-unofficial-steamdrm-thread
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1222709-unofficial-steamdrm-thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s Again?

Thread goes Usually it’s something like this.

Guy says: Steam svcks

"Other person" No its good here’s why.

"Guy" No it svcks here why you’re wrong. Am I on the right playing field?

Courtesy of Arrow Slayer an Operative of Cerberus

Only some arguments.

The real hot issue:

You must install and use Steam in order to play Rage/Skyrim. If you do not abide by Valve's terms of service, you cannot play Rage/Skyrim.

Valve reserves the right to take away the game you purchased for any reason they deem fit. After all, games are a service, not a good. :nono:

OK, that's all I needed to know; it's in violation of the copyright. So which parts of the EULA aren't just reiterating already existing laws??

Minor correction for clarification, nUbee.

You must install and use Steam in order to install and initially play the physical PC releases of Rage and/or Skyrim. If you do not abide by Valve's terms of service, you cannot install and initially play the physical PC releases of Rage and/or Skyrim.

Valve reserves the right to prevent and/or revoke your use of any and/or all the games you purchased which use Valve's service, Steam, for any reason they deem fit. After all, games are a service, not a good. :nono:

Jenifur Charne

Funny thing, because most people talk about EULAs telling you what you can't do. You already can't do those things. In legal terms, I'd call them entirely redundant. A license agreement is supposed to tell the user what they are permitted to do with the work in question. About all a EULA for software ever does that fits this is telling you how many times you can install it.

Telling you you're not allowed to make copies for distribution, that you're not allowed to modify the game, that you're not allowed to create movies or TV shows based on it, or write fanfiction stories based on it, etc, are all things you don't have the right to do anyway. And if a layman like me can figure this out by reading what's on copyright.gov, surely the lawyers can too.

Initially play? If you want to play the game, you have be running Steam in order to launch the game. Perhaps it is different with retail Steamworks games. I've never bought one.

In order to be permitted to access Offline Mode for a Steamed game, you must have initially played the game in Online Mode.
That's what I was getting at by my use of the term 'initially play'.

Jenifur Charne

Do we have the ability to uninstall Steam after activating and keep the game playable?

As long as you reinstall Steam every time you want to play the game. :tongue:

No. The Steam client is absolutely required. This isn't like a GFWL game.

You're right, GFWL is worse.

Depends on the EULA.

If it's the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License, for example, it gives you additional rights (like the right to distribute copies of the software freely) if you agree to its terms (like the term that you have to make available the original source code of the software as well if you distribute it, and same for any derivative of the software). You don't agree to the terms, it falls back to the default terms of copyright - that is: use however you like, but don't distribute.

There is no agree or disagree button. There is only play the game or don't play the game. If you play the game, you accept the terms laid in front of you. If you choose to reject the EULA presented to you by the company, they rescind your right to use the product until you accept. If the company that created the terms doesn't like whatever "modifications" you'd like to see, they can reject it just like any pen and paper contract. Which they probably would, considering that in all likelihood they already have your money by the time you even see the terms.



Could you share them once again maybe? I skimmed several threads back even beyond the point where I actually started posting in them, but I couldn't actually find these links you're talking about.

But I wasn't referring to PC gaming as a whole. Zynga is actually the most profitable gaming company in the world. The number of PC "gamers" are drastically overinflated with things on Facebook and other such flash games. About 100 million people play Farmville, but I highly doubt Oblivion has even sold 2 million copies on PC (The last known sales figures were almost 3 million across 360, PC, and PS3, but that was in '07). Farmville is still almost 10 times the population of World of Warcraft. And yet all of those Farmville players are still counted as PC "gamers", so in reality the true games are simply dwarfed by garbage. In my previous statement, I was talking about Elder Scrolls specifically, of which PC gamers account for about 10% according to Bethesda. And because anti-Steam advocates count as an even smaller minority of that minority, I'd guess that counts for 1% of Skyrim's total sales across all platforms at best.

And why do you say I'm the minority in your argument? I'm a PC gamer, which would lump me into the same group you are. Unless you mean a PC gamer who doesn't play the garbage on Facebook, then yes, I'm a minority.

Also, slightly off-topic, but I find myself wondering what the hell I'm doing. (This applies to many people here, not just you) I'm going to keep spouting pro-Steam nonsense out of my mouth, and you'll keep telling me to shove it up my ass. Neither of us is going to convince the other that they are wrong, so why do we even bother? I think a better use of my time would be spent trying to create a mind-control laser that can be beamed through the internet. But I guess if I made that, I'd just do worse things than convince the world about the benefits of Steam and the evils of intellectual property-related consumer abuse...

I suppose the only thing I really want is for this whole ordeal to not be a problem. For the world to develop enough that the internet is as accessible as water, where the USPTO wasn't such a messed up ecosystem, and where more companies had Google's motto. Someone make me the CEO of a company, I'd do things right...

Offline Steam is still Steam.

You might want to check some software installer which feature them again.



If I disagree to the terms of the EULA, I can still use the software to the terms agreed to upon purchase. That's the law, at least here in Germany.

Silly technical limitations mean nothing; I'm allowed to break them if that's what is needed to use the software I legally purchased.

Which is basically "OK" and "cancel", with different names.

I can fix that. I have the technology. (Specifically, tools like MS Visual Studio and IDA Pro).

You're still clicking the "Agree" button, whether you changed what it displays or not. If the gas pedal and the brake pedals on a car were labeled for some reason (work with me here) but you switched the labels, which pedal are you pressing to accelerate?

I recommend reading a few threads back, where it was thoroughly explained why it still doesn't work there. Germany's not my area of expertise, so I can't really speak much of it without making an utter fool of myself.

But in regards to your first statement, I really recommend reading some more EULA's. A large number of them work like the one for World of Warcraft

But without people telling each other how stupid they are for not agreeing with opinions on which they don't actually know what they're talking about, we won't have forums anymore!

Or what seems to be the majority of human interaction in general.

If I switched the labels on the pedals as well as re-wiring its internals (which is what I'm doing in such a case), sure they'd still work properly. As in, allowed me to drive.



Non sequitur. World of Warcraft's EULA is for a service. We're talking about post-purchase EULAs for products.

Then that would just be swapping the locations. Brake (disagree) would still stop (cancel), and gas (agree) would still go (install), they'd just be in a different position.

There's no other way to reprogram the installer to make "disagree" allow you to install the game, besides switching the labels.

I don't know, it seems like it would be more effective to gather a large audience of people who don't care about the issue at all and convince them why they should care, rather than struggling against a few obstinate individuals who made up their minds already long ago. I guess that's why the debate format isn't as popular these days, when instead people can turn on their televisions and accept whatever you shove into their minds. Because everything I hear on MSNBC or Fox News is an accurate reflection of absolute truth



All games are a service. What you buy at retail is the means to accept that service, nothing more. Discs are just for installing, and are unaffected by the licenses games carry with them after the fact. There is no "modifying" the contract because the company will say no. That's their right. You do things their way or not at all, and that's the choice you have. No one is forcing you to say yes, and it's not a violation of your rights because you still get to keep your $60 beverage coaster.

No, I'm rewiring "I agree to these terms, let me install" to "I disagree with these terms, let me use the default copyright law as applicable in my location and install".

It works the same ... just fine-tuned to what I want.