It's a guest Kotaku article, and you can find it http://kotaku.com/5873112/skyrim-and-the-compass-to-nowhere.

I'd like to take the opportunity to jump in and say that for me the fact that I can't clear my journal isn't a big deal. I can happily leave quests languishing forever, untouched but still irritatingly highlighted. It would be remiss of anyone to wave aside the objections to quest markers based on this one guy's nagging dislike of not clearing his journal. That is not really the issue (although more varied, neutral ways to complete quests would be very much appreciated (and a separate matter to the quest markers debate)).

I read this more as an explanation of why the game should be designed without quest markers in mind, and I hope you do too.

I hate them cause it makes paths too direct.

Half the charm of playing a game in the 90's was you found things by search for your objectives...... even DOOM wouldn't have been as good if they had just showed you the way to go.


This is why I hate quest markers.....and simply removing them via mods is no good as the game then give you no direction on where to go.

I absolutely agree that you should be able to 'tailor' your character better by being able to reject certain quest options if they do not sit comfortably with your moral disposition.
The omission of this option fundamentally ruins the role play aspect of the game.

You should be able to cancel the more morally dubious quests and remove them from your journal.

Right now my journal is mostly full of quests I don't want to do but I'm stuck with them -- like frame an innocent person and send them to jail, perform human sacrifice on a companion, join a bunch of assassins, etc.

Why does an RPG game not offer you a "no I won't" option? All that would have been required from the game designers was a "no" dialogue option and an extra quest stage which closes it after you decline. Simple as pie to implement really. For a game that is supposed to be all about choice it does tend to funnel you into directions you don't want to go.


As for quest markers. Sometimes they are useful, but it would have been more interesting if the quests gave you actual written directions as an alternative, like "travel to the camp north-north-west of Rorikstead" etc. Instead it only offers "Fetch item x" in your journal and a quest arrow.

That guy gets it.
This is the issue, this is what people have been talking about virtually from day one and it is very well worded too.
Great article.

I especially liked the example of the quest for the court mage in Riften.
It is indeed a potentially very nice quest, but completely ruined due to total lack of quest journal, it becomes follow the arrow.

I deleted my comment

^ It's not nitpicking. This is something that seriously damages the role playing experience for many people, and that by itself makes it something that BGS should be investigating. If they want to craft an enjoyable experience, they should listen to all feedback. This happens to be unusually balanced and constructive criticism (if I say so myself), so ignoring it would be truly asinine.

Exactly. If people want quest markers then I don't mind them having them, but I want a more authentic role playing experience and I can't get that until the game is designed to be played without them.

That sounds selfish, but think about it: if the game is designed without quest markers, and then the quest markers are added in, the people who want quest markers need never worry themselves about it, while the people who turn them off have other avenues through which to complete their objectives (by, I don't know, paying attention). If the game is designed with quest markers, and then the option to turn them off is added in, lazy quest design makes playing without them impossible and ultimately makes much of the game unfulfilling.

It is rather annoying for anyone that plays games fro mthe past and wants ot be challanged and not handed directions on a silver platter the whole time.

That's actually a terrible explanation and a rather weak argument. His point is basically that quest markers are bad because he likes to follow them. If you don't want a quest marker then turn it off.

The journal however is terrible but then again what part of the UI is actually good?

No, actually he dislikes following them. His argument is that mindlessly (and it does become mindless) following the quest markers severely damages the potentially amazing open world experience of Skyrim, and that if the game was designed with more care it would become disproportionately more enjoyable.

Small change, huge difference.

What's even worse is that there is a spell to to show you the way to the marker. It just shows you how far Bethesda went to please people who haven't a clue.

Personally I actually quite like the clairvoyance spell. It's still quite patronising, but unlike quest markers it is an in game mechanic that makes some measure of sense within the game world.

"My spell showed me which path I should be taking" is, role playing wise, unarguably preferable to "I inexplicably know which way to go because I am the player character and I have a [censored] magic compass, [censored]es".

Exactly how does having quest markers make a game less of an RPG. BTW you can turn off the markers in Skyrim.

Yet he still does it. It's your own choice whether you follow or even enable quest markers. Quest markers arn't the issue at all. The real issue is that the game can't properly be played without them due to the terrible UI. But naturally every time a "this game has a crap UI" thread shows up it gets flooded with diehard Skyrim fans defending it.

As I said before, it's a terrible article and a very weak argument. No wonder the guy is underemployed.

I like it too, at least the concept of it.
I would probably actually use it instead of markers if it didnt send me into mountainsides, the ground, or towards the blocked from the other side door Im supposed to exit the dungeon from with depressing regularity.

I had imagined I could roleplay my ancestor spirits guiding me towards my fate, but the spell doesnt really work.

Here's my two cents:

The game's journal system is broken, yup. Quest markers are optional, but journal entries are all written under the faulty assumption they are not.

That's only half of the problem of quest markers though.

The bigger problem?

Todd Howard said a very curious thing many months ago. Todd spoke about how Skyrim will be refocusing on the "wonder of discovery" that elevated Morrowind to legendary esteem within the RPG community. Unfortunately - Todd and Bethesda seem to have not realised a critical aspect of that noble design goal:

Quest markers are antithetical to the "wonder of discovery".

On a subconscious level - a player's motivation to explore a world is invaded and diminished by omnipresent guidance markers to objectives.

When you arrive at a new city, instead of experiencing a full sensation of awe to explore, and to locate the person you need... Instead you are compelled directly to them because you are forced to acknowledge all other assets around you are secondary.

From a design philosophy - quest markers are toxic poison for the beauty of Elder Scrolls. Quest markers shrink worlds. Quest markers make cities feel one dimensional. Quest markers ensure half the NPCs are never spoken to.

Let's hope Bethesda properly implement the system next time for those people who understand how the game is enhanced without them.

Go to options, remove HUD, how hard was THAT?

^ I tried that. Removing the HUD was easy as pie. Playing without the HUD, however, was impossible. It would have been manageable if the crosshair had remained so on my first playthrough I knew what I was even looking at, but no.

Because role playing means playing a role, and "my character knows where to go even when not given any direction whatsoever just because" isn't a very fun or, dare I say it, immersive character to play. Your character should piece together how to proceed in quests based on what information they're given, be those vague clues or direct orders. They shouldn't know where to go without any external input, and the player shouldn't have to fill in for this by staring at their compass. It simply does go against the concept of a role playing game.

And you can deactivate quests yes, but I can't use my clairvoyance spell without the quest marker being active, so even that small workaround isn't allowed. Besides, it isn't really a choice to turn quest markers on or off. Without prior knowledge of the game, a player would be totally lost without them because the game does not give any alternative direction, and that is the issue.

The problem is not something inherent in quest markers, but in the game's design. The problem is that quest markers are required to get anything done in good time or even within an enjoyable gameplay flow.

I'm not a fan of quest markers either, but it's almost a must have with the minimalist quest journal. Still, I'm on character 5, and I've had so much more fun this time because I've set the UI opacity very low. That means I don't see the compass when I play. I'd turn it off, but I need the health bars.

For the next game, they should consider ditching it and expanding the clairvoyance spell while adding a tracking skill set.

How would the clairvoyance spell work without the quest being highlighted, think about it, it would go every which way and would have no point of reference, again, turn the hud off, pick the quest, use the spell, there ya go.

i WISH I COULD EXPLORE AROUND WINTERHOLD BUT I DONT HAVE A QUEST THAT GOES THERE YET HM WHAT SHOULD I DO CUZ I KNOW YOU CANT JUST GO EXPLORE WHATEVER YOU WANT WITHOUT QUESTS I KNOW THAT ISNT POSSIBLE RIGHT

Lol, I went there without a quest marker, hell, you can explore the whole world without quest markers, but ya know, I guess thats not possible?

It's not the UI, it's the game design. Quests in Skyrim do not contain enough information for the player to complete them without quest markers, and for many, quest markers ruin the experience.

It's not that they're impossible to turn off or that one physically cannot ignore them. It's that they may as well be impossible to turn off given the way the game design revolves around them and given human nature. The quest markers are compelling. Just because we don't want them to be compelling doesn't mean that they aren't.

That's why the option to turn quest markers off without deactivating quests is important.

I can't turn the HUD off because there are aspects of it that I need.

You can turn off the quest markers in Skyrim. Something you could not do in Oblivion.

Also, a post or two was deleted. If you have nothing useful or reasonably relevant to add to a topic, don't post. Including the post after this one, I just deleted. That probably sounded more clever in your head than it actually was.

@kubal7 - STOP TYPING IN ALL CAPS PLEASE. Thanks. It is considered rude.

But you can't realistically and without foreknowledge progress through quests enjoyably without them because of the dearth of actual information that would help us.