But I disagree.

YOU say that playing the game normally will end up with a broken, OP character. I have not had that experience.

I have 4 characters currently. 2 of them are pretty OP, the other 2 aren't at all- they're quite challenging. The difference is that on the OP characters, I conciously chose to do things that I KNEW would make them OP. Not only that, but I kept at it, and improved on them, so that now one is so OP, I went through a dungeon that had not just a Draugr Deathlord here and there, but more than 50% of the Draugr were Deathlords. I only had to use potions twice I think. Many of them went down in one shot, and never more than 3 shots. My health rarely went below 80%.

The other 2 are extremely challenging, requiring multiple reloads on almost all boss fights, and not uncommonly on just regular fights with more than 2 enemies.

The difference is that I just play and level those two characters how I feel the character would act- i.e. I role-play them. I don't purposefully avoid certain skills, and in fact, all of them hacve done some crafting. I just haven't power-leveled crafting (or any other skill) on the 2 challenging characters. One of those just getting to where it's easier (not OP, but I don't die every boss fight any more), and it's in the high 40s. I suspect it will be OP by the time it passes 50, but that's to be expected. There's nothing in the game that's as high-level as you once you get past 50.

I think its just one of the cons of the NPC system they use, theres only so much you can do within it to make "Bosses" challenging. Just about every game that has "hard" bosses uses heavy scripting, which would really svck in a TES game.

I always end up OP no matter what skills I do or do not take, but thats because Im OP IRL.

There is a duality with this conversation that I find confusing.

There is a discussion about how 'easy' Skyrim is, and in the same breath people are saying NPC's should not be able to use finishers on players. Then there are people still who say that an archer, mage, or bandit chief should not be able to do so much damage to a player...effectively 2 or 3 shotting them.

From Full Metal Jacket :

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0090124/: Marine, what is that button on your body armor?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000546/: A peace symbol, sir.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0090124/: Where'd you get it?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000546/: I don't remember, sir.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0090124/: What is that you've got written on your helmet?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000546/: "Born to Kill", sir.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0090124/: You write "Born to Kill" on your helmet and you wear a peace button. What's that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000546/: No, sir.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0090124/: You'd better get your head and your [censored] wired together, or I will take a giant [censored] on you.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000546/: Yes, sir.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0090124/: Now answer my question or you'll be standing tall before the man.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000546/: I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0090124/: The what?
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000546/: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.

Again, this points out that everyone's "play normally" is different. Like I said, I think I "played normally", at least what I would consider it.

And the way it was for me.... well, it was easy for the first 10 or so levels, then things got harder and I thought dungeon bosses and current-level dragons (Blood, Elder, Ancient, etc. Not older tier ones) were a danger and could kill me if I wasn't careful, straight through to the upper 40's. The Gauldur Amulet bosses? Kicked my butt. Especially the final part - had to come back to that much later. Going up the steps to Hrothgar? Had to give up on it in the teens, only tried again in the 20's, when I could actually have a chance to fight the snowcat and the ice troll. Etc, etc, etc.

And yeah - I used Smithing, I used Sneak. Didn't super-level them, though - that wouldn't be "playing normally". (As it was, "normally" leveling Smithing only got it to 100 at level 48. No other skills were 100 yet. My "normal" also included spreading out perks among many skills - putting a dozen or more into one skill doesn't seem right... it's boring. Also, since my skills were leveling so slowly, I couldn't put many into one skill, unless I'd saved them for many levels. "Playing normally" for me included looking around among my skills when I hit a level, and finding somewhere to put perk points that seemed interesting.)

Someone else might look at how I played/leveled/perked, and say "that's not normal, that's playing like an idiot and/or gimping yourself terribly!" If you say so, I thought it was good play.

And considering that I was able to get challenge and enjoyment, at Adept difficulty, for most of the 90 hours I played that character? I'm not really likely to find fault with that playstyle.

(Oh, yeah - hybrid warrior/rogue. Sort of a ranger. Used around 10-12 skills somewhat equally, rather than focusing on, say, 4. Main combat was Sword&Board, Light Armor.)

Kyralin:

That was exactly my point, too. When I played "normally", I didn't have any problems finding challenge. It was only when I set out to become OP that I did.

For those that experience something else, maybe you're just too good for the game? Did you consider that maybe some of us aren't video game wizards, and that challenge for you might mean impossible for someone else?

Difficulty, as it relates to scaling is the issue. I as the player do not have enough options available to make sure my experience from level 1 until whenever I stop playing is balanced and engaging. Yes, I would like to progress and feel more powerful each level, however, in Skyrim there comes a point where this simply scales wildly out of control for many players. Like the OP said, your only alternative is to impose rules on yourself and self-gimp. This is done by intentionally not taking beneficial Perks, wearing inferior gear, and NOT progressing. That is the only method you have to balance the game, because the game itself is balanced dismally. Personally, I don't think enemies should ever STOP scaling. Enemies scale off of your "level" which is a terrible indicator of power, as given your Perk investment and current Skill levels combined with gear, is what truly makes the difference. My character, who has Enchanting Perks, Smithing Perks, Sneaking, and Archery Perks will have a HECK of an easier time than someone who decided to LARP and pick up worthless Pickpocketing and Lockpicking Perks without any Enchanted gear.

The method they chose to scale enemies and difficulty is to blame. It is a terrible concept and needs to be reworked as well as the option for players to have more control over game difficulty. Players who want to make gods should be able to, albeit sans cheating this should be a difficult and rewarding process, and characters that do not should not be penalized so severely because they did not want to border god-levels.

I think the magic resistance causes as much problem as anything and it doesn't get talked about as much. There is so much 50% reduction gear out there, you don't need enchanting to get it. My nord was 100% immune to frost at an incredibly low level just from finding a shield. Okay, I drop this shield or else Frost Dragons were about as much trouble as a mudcrab. Say what you want, that is bad design.

Exactly my thoughts every time i read a post claiming the lack of difficulty is down to the player. I have one character at level 22 ish and find myself avoiding the fun of smithing/enchanting and their relevant perks as i'm paranoid about finding everything too easy in another 10 levels or so.
I don't have the time to play multiple characters, but would rather have one memorable, epic playthrough.
It has been a lot of fun so far, but i'd really like to experience the whole game naturally, without ruining the higher levels.

Yes. The problem is the fact that you do not need to go out of your way to become overpowered. That is what makes it a design flaw. I should have to cheat, exploit, or invest a CONSIDERABLE amount of time/effort to obtain this power, not just trip over a Shield and boom invunlnearable to Elemental Damage, or invest just a few Perk points and be at Armor Cap. The entire Light Armor & Heavy Armor trees are worthless. You invest 1 or 2 Perk points and that is all you need, especially if you take up Smithing.

To me Skyrim plays like it's designed for people who want to run through one guild quest line and maybe the main quest line. The guilds are designed for a low-level player to progress in power. That's why even though your armor is made out of the bones of dragons you've slaughtered the Companions want to see if you can use a sword when you join.

And Skyrim's definitely not designed for people who know how to squeeze something out of the numbers. I don't even mean min/max players. Unless you take a lot of RP perks (speech, pickpocketing, lockpicking) you're going to quickly build serious combat skills. Add tradeskills to that and nothing can touch you.

The placement of perks is what potentially makes the game most unbalanced. If you only put perks in say One-Handed, Heavy armour, smithing and enchanting then yes, your guy will have a uber killing sword and a super enchanted armor.

If you spread your perks around a bit more and don't abuse the craft skills the game becomes more challenging.

But yes, it takes discipline. I'm always tempted after a particular tough fight where I reloaded two or three times to just put the next perk somewhere that would instantly overpower me, or just iron dagger craft my way to God mode, but I have to resist a bit.

My 10 year old sister is almost done with the main quest in this game.

Even the thought of her completing a quest in Morrowind is hilarious. This game was made for people who want their handheld and it's too easy. I have the difficulty on Masters and it's still too damned easy. I guess I should handicap myslef to make bosses, dragons, and monsters challenging? It's stupid.

So you're saying Morrowind is hard?

Agreed that previous games weren't better. The problem with Oblivion was that the slider worked as a tedium rather than difficulty slider. At higher levels (25 or 30?) with the slider cranked, you still weren't going to die, you still weren't in any danger, but you were going to have to whack that foe 30 times with your sword. Not challenging, not fun.

There are better ways to crank difficulty (better AI, and more spawns), but we won't see them. I wouldn't mind a master+ difficulty in Skyrim, but not 1/6x and 6x. Maybe 6x or 8x, but never less than 1/2, because it ruins combat (both in terms of immersion, and just plain old having fun). A little HP and armor tweaking might be good, too.

Hi all, new here...

Skyrim and Portal 2 are the first computer games I have enjoyed since GTA SA... so I am not an RPG fan...

I am playing a mage on adept and finding it annoyingly hard because of the underpowered magic and the terrible combat mechanics. I can barely see the crosshair on my 15' laptop's screen.

Because I did not understand much about the skill tree and how perks can be upgraded, and because I don't actually find the RPG elements of the game that interesting, I didn't spend much time at all in enchanting or crafting. I find all the micromanaging required incredibly tedious when there is such grand adventuring to be had....

So i tend to roam a lot, and not level up very fast at all. I played every day from mid December till early January and only got to level 21 and nearl smashed the mouse agianst the wall several times.

Bored? Hell, no! I'm about to start a new character from scratch. Planning to play this game for the next few months if i get the time!

I will be exploring a lot of the auto-levelling mods. I prefer more of an action adventure where things get autolevelled as i do stuff, finish quests, defeat certain enemies, find certain people, get taught stuff etc.... I don't care for hundreds of variants of every item, and having to manualy recharge magical weapons in the middle of a fight.

So, no, it is not easy for everybody.

Morrowind Alchemy. Although it is really funny what happens your strength is at 35,000 for fifteen months and you hit something with a sword.

I have four characters, the first one a mage, started in adept difficulty (now lvl52), was getting a hard time controling my mana, then i realized how the system works, i leveled enchanting and the game became much more easier, i didnt like it. The second character is a thief/illusioninst/archer, without enchanting or smithing, i loved the gameplay of sneak, illusions CC and pickpocketing, started the game in master and until now (lvl 42) i got a lot of challenging fights, died a lot when hit by archers or mages, melees dont even get close.

Then i tried a two-handed/heavy armor/block (lvl 20) build and OMG the game is f******** hard! The same with my dual-wield/alteration/restoration character (lvl 12). I think hard game is fun, cause make me rethink my builds.

Well, after these experiences, my conclusion is that the game overall is well balanced and is not easy, the problem is that enchanting and smithing is overpowered, just that. I know people say it all the time, but now i can say i agree, cause i've experienced it ingame. Maybe enchanting and smithing are suited for players that like to play godlike mode ^^

Pretty much this, Bethesda games has never been hard at high level, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Fallout 3.
Oblivion and Fallout 3 broken steel was the only where you could not single hit to kill bosses.
However in both you had so much health at high levels you could just focus on getting the enemy down, using some buff or restore potions and you was very hard to kill.

Now Skyrim max difficulty is: enemies does 2x damage and you deals 1/2. increase this to 4x and 1/4 or more and this issue is solved.
Oblivion had 7x and 1/7 at max difficulty however as weapon damages was low it just become boring. with overpowered weapons and the more dangerous Skyrim enemies it would be an real challenge.

Agree with this. Take the smithing, alchemy, and enchanting skills that you can use to make god-like armor and weapons. I can't believe how many players are posting threads for this to be changed. Why? You can't control yourself and not powerlevel those skills?

I never understood the "I don't like this, change it so no one else can do this either" attitude. Saw a lot of this in WoW, and was hoping not to see it in Sky sigh.

I've been a pure conjuration/destruction mage with master difficulty since the beginning. I've tried hard to avoid power leveling or exploits and I still have to handicap my character more and more as the game progresses if I want a challenge (and I do).

This ruins the whole experience, really.

Somewhat true, but thru normal gameplay you could aquire sigil stones that enabled you to get powerful enchantments like Chameleon or Resist/Abosrb Magic. Enchant a few pieces of clothes and you are at 100%. It was hard unless you did the "save before picking up the sigil stone" bit, but you could still get those.

IMO Skyrim is surprisingly challenging at times. On expert my warrior with two-handed axe and dualwield swords gets into problems frequently when not being careful. Potions and a companion are mandatory to survive. Of course it gets easier when your character gets more powerful but that's how it supposed to be. Morrowind had the problem that the content for high-level characters ended too soon (after you get to levels 25-30 you were pretty much god). At first MW was really hard(which I did like) but it got easy too soon.

Oblivion had this issue, as everybody put lots of points into stamina at low level you got loads of health.
Damage was pretty low, comparable with unimproved Skyrim weapons with low skill and no perks, this was also true for enemies, with the huge amount of healing portions you could just heal if the health went to low.
Now if you never put any points into stamina the game got more interesting.

Skyrim has the benefit of way more damaging weapons and more dangerous enemies making higher difficulty fun however for people who povergame or want an serious challenge 2x and 1/2 damage is not enough.

More spawns would be better as two enemies is more than twice as hard as one, worse if you get mixed units with melee and ranged however this will tax consoles hard and might give other issues like placement.

I use only the Light Armor that I find. I improve it when I get it. I use only the One-Handed weapons that I find. I improve them as I get them. I use Bows that I find. Again, I improve them when I get them. I use my gems and gold and silver ingots to craft jewelry. I use Alchemy only as I need it, which is not that often -- same thing with magic.

What I do NOT do is sit around grinding skills or using exploits to level skills.

On Adept difficulty, my way of playing gives me a decent challenge throughout the game. At the end of a run like that, none of my crafting skills have gone beyond level 35. My primary combat skill is low- to mid-70s, and my armor/block skills are somewhere in the 50 range.

The dififcult slider has less affect on difficulty than your build or willingness to exploit game features do. Most skills you can level to 100 before you fight anything if you want to, and several of them make even master dififculty trivial. Conversely, if you impose strict rules on yourself and use a non-optimal build then even adept can provide a good challenge.