I agree

You state this as fact, and support it with no evidence. As I am too apathetic to debate you, I have tried to craft a reply free of troll-bait. If you are so inclined, educate us by citing credible evidence supporting your claims regarding the software's deficiencies.

The developers will try to protect their investment somehow. So far as I know, there is no perfect DRM software, but most of it will deter a novice.

People with sufficient knowhow will be able to make it available to the warez community (along with a nice payload of malware). :brokencomputer:

People who download it may have exciting life experiences along the lines of identity theft and learning to rebuild their credit. :banghead:

I have never had a bad experience using Steam. If anything, I have found it to be extremely useful as I need not re-install Steam apps when upgrading my machine.

google fallot 3 new vegas torrent, check upload dates...or google ANY steam game add torrent to the end of it and check upload date vs release date. other non steam games have come with auto patchers...so that is a moot point annnd that only leaves the DRM/piracy point...which with a little googling you can see for yourself how (in)effective it is.

if you want to use steam fine...it should be a choice, not a requirement unless valve MADE the game. riddle me this...do you routinely download 'free' software and accept every adware, spyware, malware app that may be bundled with it? you must since you believe the more unneeded apps running on your system the better.

Heh. Nope, the free stuff I download is usually open source and very high quality (Foobar2000, FileZilla, Firefox, Chrome...), and I have loads of free resources, idle processor time, and a short list of items run at startup. Of course, with a Solid State OS drive, I probably could be quite a moron before the performance really tanked, but why be a slob?

you made my point for me since you specified you don't install or have running what you don't need...no useless apps starting or running eh? no apps that don't actually do something required or are beneficial eh? no unnecessary bloatware...

Regardless if people like it and accept it or not, he's right. I just wrote my 2 cents on this issuehttp://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1135362-being-forced-to-use-steam-svcks/page__st__140__p__16621112&#entry16621112. If people want to continue to play games on the PC, they'd better get used to it. Or... trade up the PC for a console system. Nothing wrong with that, hell, that couch is mighty appealing over a computer chair.





Personally, i detest GFWL. I find it obtuse, and i don't particuarlly care for MS.




No DRM is going to stop piracy. But they will make it a bit harder to pirate things, or at the least, offer incentives to use legit copies over illegal ones, which i think is what steam attempts to do. Aside from that, DRM in general exists because of piracy. If you want to see a DRM failure, go look up ubisofts latest attempts at DRM. Internet connection to their servers, all the time, even in a singleplayer game. if no active connection to their server is present, the game is disabled, and there is no offline mode. So if you have a crappy connection, your SOL.

Thank you so much for post this! I dont have internet right now and Im using a friends internet right now to check emails and i want new vegas but thought you had to have steam and internet to play it. Do you know that when a patch comes out can u download a patch else where and copy to disc to install on the computer without internet?

meh, it's only a future if people roll over and let it be the future. nothing against digital distribution...everything against apps running i don't need. i buy a game i prefer to own it, not be told i can't play it however i choose...means i'm plunking down money for nothing. steam servers get trashed, power outage, earthquake, fire, flood, anything there goes all the games that have steam licenses. unplayable useless software.

anti-piracy means and methods are still in flux, new concepts being tested and tried...requiring a perm net connection is just another step, and a poor one at that because it relies on a third party. never had a problem with steam? steam servers have never gone done? yet...operative word there. one of the patches for this game required disabling steam cloud. it is literally completely useless software EXCEPT for the money it makes valve. people quote huge savings...price breaks on steam games...what? do they think storing that costs huge amounts of cash? does it cost you anything to store software on your system? or transfer it to someone else's besides the connection required? and you can repeat that a million times and the cost will not change.

same with digital distribution, any company can do it, cheaper by far than making boxes, dvd's, manuals, etc (even though all that is only a few dollars...and that's an over estimate) digital distro is CHEAP. *sigh* biggest and always the best ad campaigns are where companies make you think you need something or are getting some kind of deal...

I realize now that I don't know enough about why steam is and what it's supposed to do to make a educated argument for or against it. It could be that somebody has good intentions, but the internet is like outlaw territory, it's full of trickery and deceit. And when something acts like steam I go on guard.

This thread has vectored away from the original question I was asking. Somebody said "why don't you just load the game off the DVD and don't use steam?". Thats exactly what I can't do. The first time I loaded the game off the DVD it loaded off the DVD. So did steam. And they were separate. I could click on steam icon and I could click on Fallout New Vegas icon. When I clicked on Fallout New Vegas the game started by itself, or what appeared to be by itself. The steam screen didn't load. Then I thought, "If the game runs without steam then uninstall steam". So I did. This is where steam reared it's ugly head and took out Fallout New Vegas with it. Now both programs are supposably uninstalled. I go the reinstall Fallout and steam comes on and won't let the install run off the DVD. It starts downloading the whole game from the steam website. THE WHOLE FILE. like 7 gigs and no matter how many times I hit cancel it would always start downloading the game from the website. Blantant hijacking. When sombody is writing complex code, that I don't want to spend the time to figure out because I'm not a nerd, making it to where I no longer have control over MY machine then thats WRONG. It's the same as if you snuck into somebody's bedroom while they were sleeping and stole money off their dresser. You would get away with it because they don't know what your doing. Don't get me started............

Anyway, this game is hard. Whats the trick to shooting someone and killing them with one shot? Do you always have to hit someone square in the center of the face?

Completely useless? wow. maybe for you but not for me, or any of my friends/work mates that game on their PCs. I buy tons of games through Steam and play them often. IMO Steam is a must, not useless.
I think there is some ignorance on these boards as to what Steam actually is. It's not just game distribution software. It has a full suite of community features including groups, friends lists, IM, achievments, event scheduling, matchmaking, lobbies, the list goes on.

Also, Steam Cloud is just a feature that allows tracking game configs and saved games across systems (ie. your home machine and your work machine). If you don't play games on more than one system then disabling steam cloud should make no difference to you.

sneak attack, high luck, high crit multiplier weapon/perk, damage perks, the various achievement perks vs xxx, high guns skill...any or all of those
no weapon mods and sniper rifle sneak mode one shots nearly everything...even if the head shot is missed

deluxxe...just because you want all that social networking garbage, extra apps on your system, good on you... you could get the same thing through fb >.> when i game i don't care about all that...not interested in showing off how uber my gaming skills are. obviously you didn't read, or research before jumping up to defend something that bears no relevance for gaming, you like it. that doesn't mean it's actually something useful or that it's functions couldn't be acquired through other methods. and if i needed to transfer game settings or saves? through the network, flash drive, hundreds of methods that don't require steam. i don't like being forced to use it, especially considering no matter what you say the only thing steam/valve truly benefits is itself.

i buy games to play games...how many effin readmes in games say 'turn of all other apps and check background processes for a smooth gaming experience' or advice to that effect? bleh, with you...it's a case of emotion not logic...you like it. like loading up your system with useless junk...good on you.

Steam is amazing. Don't give it the cold shoulder. Embrace it.


There's a difference between "Games for Windows" and "Games for Windows - Live"


So you read read-me's and need to turn off your virus scanner to get a consistant framerate? Are you sure teh PC gaming isn't hurting yoor brainz?

This is 2010. Get a decent PC, and quit complaining about a program that's using up 50 out of 4096mb of RAM at the most in the background.

typical, try not to resort to flaming or make assumptions m'kay? i say typical because when someone likes something (emotional) over purely logical they tend to go off the deep end rather quickly when what they like is questioned or impugned in any fashion. i made logical valid points...steam is useless, not needful for any game. all would run fine if not better with out it...and my system? it's a little over a 2 years old *sigh* poor old thing

processor: Phenom 9600 black edition quad core (9600) @2.4GHz
RAM 8GB DDR2@800mhz
pagefile: 1ssd 32gb
storage: 4 1TB hdd's
video: 9600gso (by asus) 512mb
mobo: asus m3n78-emh-hdmi
yep, it's just sooo weak O.O
OS: server 2008 x64...because i'm not an idiot trying to run a 32-bit OS with more than 3GB
only problem i've had with fnv was fixed after patch 2

want the specs on my other 2 systems? media rig has the good vid card in it >.> HD 1080p 42" goodness...but the above is my main gaming rig. why? because i can alt tab out of anything (even fnv) and do other things like check this forum and go right back to playing.

piece of advice...never debate trying to use emotion, especially concerning anything that has specific rules such as PC hardware/software...the only thing that counts are facts. Liking something, wishing something doesn't make it so. the facts about steam are as i have stated, they're immutable. IE: they're not going to change because they go against what you like or believe. insulting me (or attempting to) won't change that. insulting my hardware...won't change those facts either, best just to accept it and move on.

and btw...been gaming most likely since before you were born, played pong when it was new and have been gaming ever since on consoles and pc's

so, if you argue, that steam is only used for DRM, and that it's failing at that. WHY is it used for DRM in the first place?
simply because other forms of copy protection didn't work. or don't anymore.

the most effective DRM until date i know is the one that protects current generation Eidos games.
yes, you need to be connected to the internet the whole time you play. and yes, the servers must be up and you need to have a slot in them. if too many ppl play, you won't be able to play.

but if you change perspective and look from the point of view of the publisher, this is acceptable.
it took the warez community a few weeks to understand the protection and starting to work around it. and it took them several weeks more to get everything to work. every little sidequest and achievement.

this is all time in which the publisher will sell copies of the game to ppl that else wouldn't buy it, because they could pirate it.


yes, there are games out there that get released with any kind of copy protection. but those games get bought much less, too, since you can simply copy it onto your harddrive and play it without the hassle of reading through .nfo files and copying cracked files over existing ones.



besides. steam isn't just a DRM that keeps you from playing if you don't own the game legally.
it's a platform for games, that didn't exist before in that form. it brings games to systems like MacOSX, that where left behind in the last decade. enabling them to play games publishers didn't bother to port and widening the range of game available.


and might i remind all those DRM haters to the situation PC games are in right now?
there are a lot of games coming to PC greatly delayed or NOT at all, because PC games still have the highest rate of pirating in comparison to any other platform.
game companies don't create games because they have such a kind heart and want to spread joy through out the world.
they create games to make money!
simple as that.

and those companies usually aren't owned by themselves, but by a host of stockholders, who invest money in those companies and expect to get some back.
but they can't get it back, if the publishing company doesn't sell enough units because of the high rates of pirating.
so it's understandable, that these investors want to protect their investments, and thus making the publishers putting DRM on their software.




@deadspacex
just noticed a lil contradiction in your argument.
you close all unneeded programs when playing games to maximize your gaming experience, but still have forums and "other things" open in the background.

i never said i close all of them, in fact i run things because i know my systems stable enough to handle it, i can close everything though, and have nothing running except the game...if it wasn't connected at the hip to steam.

first run of any new game i get everything unnecessary gets shutdown, and slowly i work out what i can run in the background without affecting game performance. so far, winamp, opera (with half a dozen tabs open) processxp, taskmanager, IE, all work fine in game or alt tabbed out with no issues. winamp was a surprise, using vista 5.1 plugin, thought for sure that would crash the game or winamp >.>

i can close all of those though...and do when adding new mods for the first time...steam on the other hand...

no form of copy protection has worked for long...steam is one of the worst for protection though...another person did more research than i and found fnv was cracked within 3 hrs of release...that's a complete fail if there ever was one. steam affecting achievements, steam crashing, people not even being able to get the game installed, and many not bothering to buy it because of the connection requirements...how is that seriously viable for a company that wants to make money? wants to reach as many consumers as possible?

i don't know what beth or obsidian were thinking...except maybe it was a cheap, fast way to get some form of protection without building a scheme in house...which would have been the wiser course, though more time consuming. new protections are tougher because there's no easy/fast template to follow. steams been made groups favorite b!tch lately it seems. they don't even have to work up any brain sweat as fast as the break it. social networking? getting fancy stats page(s)? if someone needs ego stroking then good for them...if they need peerage or whatever from the social networking aspect of steam then great for them.

i don't. being forced to use software that is completely useless in every way is just...useless. as i've said...valve benefits from steam more than players or the companies that use steam. it doesn't benefit me...it didn't benefit fnv...so the only winner is valve.

Your PC is subpar at best and nothing to even brag about.

some people are never going to be happy no matter what and there is no convincing them other wise if he dosnt want steam then dont buy games that require it. The dev are not going to change it for the small minority of people who don't like it they are trying to protect their product in some form (even though it dosn't work) Digital distribution looks like it is going to be the future so might as well get use to it. Every time I got into the stores to by a PC game the section is getting smaller and smaller so thats a petty good indication that box copies will be going the way of the beta max tape soon.

Steam, in my opinion, is the reason that PC gaming is and will remain alive now and into the future. The service has a lot of pros and very few cons. If you buy a game through steam and then log into your account on another PC from a different location you are able to download and install any of your purchases. There is a Mac client for steam and Valve ported most of their source games over for Mac users to experience and if you already own the titles on PC you automatically can access the Mac version. Multiplayer is (mostly) free. They have an extensive back catalog of PC games including DOS classics all at reasonable prices. They have a lot of sales and value packages sometime literally a couple bucks for big titles which deters piracy. And speaking of that, the service also serves as an itunes-like DRM model. Cons would be your account could be hacked, you can't resell retail games that use steam, and if you do not have broadband the service is useless.

Yeah, Steam is pretty great. It wasn't so swift in the beginning but it is reliable. As a gamer, how could you not like Steam? The sales alone are worth using it.

@PettingZOOPONY don't know much about pc's do you? besides, where was it bragging when it was simply answering a post that made reference to my rig being incapable of running more that one thing at a time? try not to troll m'kay?

and the rest...sounds more like you're trying to convince yourselves, nothing said changes the fact the steam is useless...it doesn't hinder piracy at all. as unwinding stated in his cons (some of the same things i've said) you don't own anything, i did forget the account hacking...another lovely 'feature'. selling at low prices? dos games? made that point earlier too.

once again...if you like all the added fluff good on you. if you like never owning anything, more power too you. if you believe (and it is a belief, not reality) that valve actually are out to benefit you and any other entity but themselves, great fantasy you have going there. and no, i won't buy anymore steam games. there are different methods of digital distribution that don't require steams obtrusiveness. that don't require a company gaining all my habits and demographic data to sell or use however they want..and me paying them for that.

a debate isn't about 'like' pc's, software, or hardware isn't about like or any emotion...it's about what is effective and what works. what is efficient. necessary. steam isn't or no one would have any problems with it. there would be no hardware/software issues with it, it would function as intended on all platforms and all configs. it would be effective at it's intended primary function. social networking? not necessary for gaming...sales alone worth using it? sale of what? software you don't own? how exactly is that a sale? sale means to buy something that you then own. to do with as you please including resale...try not to get what steam does and actual retail sales confused. steam leases...it doesn't sell anything. it can remove your right to use the software you've leased at any time for any reason. someone could hack your account and do the same. steam servers go down and you'll have nothing to show for the money you've spent.

while valve laughs all the way to the bank. lol, you pay for the privilege of making steam more money over and above what you pay to lease games...( i did mention the free data you provide steam that very few realize how valuable that actually is...more than you have paid for steam games by far)

unwinding so far is the only one that attempted to make any sort of rational points...except his pros (when you know that steam does nothing to deter piracy, and that sales are actually leasing) makes both cons as well.

What is Steam to Fallout:New Vegas?

Answer: A Syphilitic Heart Condition.

I like Steam, I don't like being forced to use it.

edit: double post

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1124974-complaint/page__st__60? That poll reminds me of the results from the GWFL equivalent which looked something like http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/JustinCoherent/3813-1-1239929469.jpg. If the devs really didn't care, they'd have stuck with GFWL for FNV. In retrospect, GFWL was less of a pain, didn't involve encrypting the .exe, and didn't force advertisemants on the user when starting their game. Albeit, GFWL never stayed on my system longer than it took to get a DLC for FO3, but at least one could still run the game without the unwelcomed guest by simply using a fake XLive.dll.

That some really like Steam is a good indication it should be an option post-install/registration, but that it's mandatory even after registration of a hard copy is too much. It doesn't have a single feature I'm interested in and I'll not have anything tracking how much I play of what or using a single MB of my memory when every little bit counts.

I can't agree more. The sales/deals are amazing on Steam. I played fallout 3 on 360 but still bought the Steam "game of the year" addition that came with all the DLC and everything. I think it cost me something like 20 dollars on a weekend sale. It's just way more convenient to have it on Steam than a crappy, noisy, DVD, that spins away in a loud console with crappy graphics.

When my computer is on, Steam is running. That's just the way it goes for me.
I can understand people not liking to use it when they bought their game in a store and not through Steam itself, but to make a blanket statement that it is "literally useless software" is completely rediculous.

To the steam haters, why argue about it, your opinions of steam are not going to change bethesdas mind about using steam.

Bethesda is not going to spend thousands of dollars just so the minority can have their offline mode, and here's something to think about if bethesda was not using steam they would be using securom their past DRM, and more gamers hate securom than steam, considering securom installs hidden files in your O/S and registry entries, and modern securom contains more evil things like limited installs and needing to be online to activate your game. Steams not so bad since it can be removed fairly easily if you don't want it unlike securom...

Ohh and if any of you steam haters are PC game savvy in any way you would know how to play a legit version of New Vegas without the need for steam... and take my advice if you hate steam you better learn how to remove steam from your game installs since more and more devs are now using steam and pretty soon you will not be able to run pc games without it