What is the point of choice when both options lead to the same outcome?


If you want versatility then a blank human is the ultimate canvas as they can be anything you want, however if you are going to give the player a choice in races then you might as well make the choice significant by making playing each race a unique experience.


If you want to join the Stormcloaks you play a Nord, it is as simple as that just like in Origins your character cannot marry Queen Anora and become king if he is anything but a Human Noble. You said in your previous post that not allowing racial choice somehow "destroys the lore", however allowing a Dark Elf or High Elf to join and become an influentual member of the Stormcloaks is a far bigger kick to the nuts of the lore.

Then it would be the same, if they let it out. Because the Stormcloaks don't like other races, without exeptions. I didn't saw a Dark Elf or Argonian in the Stormcloaks.



And would be a much bigger kick in the nuts of the players.

There's actually a Dark Elf in the Stormcloaks.

And no, it actually wouldn't be the same if you put those requirements in. The player would have to decide if they wanted to go through the extra hassle of going through a series of quests just to join a group that doesn't want them there in the first place. You combine that with other aspects of racism they could implement, like higher prices for Elves in Widnhelm, lower quest rewards if you aren't a Nord, etc, and it allows the player to step into the shoes of a character that has to fight and scratch for everything if they want to gain rank... not just go through the same quest path line as easily as a Nord that's welcomed with open arms.

For the next Elderscrolls game they should include a racial quest line for every race. It doesn't have to be anything particularly long, just something that starts off at the beginning of the game and informs you about your characters racial identity. Like lets say you play a Kajiit, you should very early on be approached by a Kajiit merchant who goes "You will not be allowed to enter the city unless you have a permit, but you have to be part of a trade caravan to get one, luckily I can use an extra pair of hands", then you'd go through a few quests running with the caravan until you gain entry to the cities, and some more after that if you have a mind to continue learning more about your people. Every other race would start with a similar questline, like for example, if you're an Altmer you'd be inducted into a resistance group against the Thalmore who are friends to the Nords and know of a ritual by which a stranger can recieve a mark of honor that will make Nords recognize you as being trustworthy. Even if you're a Nord the game could hold a quest line for you, for example it would assume that you've somehow been dishonored while you were captured, and to regain your honor and no longer be outcast from Nord society you have to undergo a trial of your prowess at arms, and learn the old nord ways.

You just have to set up some kind of hurdle (Like, you cannot enter cities or you are not trusted by the people) that you have to cross in the beginning of the game, set up a different reason for it for the different races, and let people learn a bit about the race they picked. Show them in a good light, make people understand what's compelling about their background.

Pick a race you think is cool from a roleplaying standpoint. In the end game they are all pretty much equal

And that is what hurts the RPG element. Choices have no weight if you can be like everyone else in the end.

Damn this thread. I am seriously going to roll a new character now.

On that note, this illustrates much of what I've said already. Roleplaying in and of itself can get me stoked. I don't need Bethesda to do everything.. although there are some good ideas here too, don't get me wrong.

Your Character still looks different then others. The game should hold your hand all the time.

Roleplaying is about the choices, but it seems to me that if you really know the race you're playing, it will color what you perceive and how you choose. How many argonian players RP their resentment toward dunmer in the game? How many altmer players make their choices as if they were the rightful lords and masters of all the world? How many dunmer players play as if they were Morag Tong in a past life?

It would be nice to see more coded-in differences in gameplay between the races tho.

There was an old series of games put out by Sierra called "Quest for Glory", in which you could pick a class emphasis (mage, thief, or warrior. Quest solutions and portions of the storyline were different depending on which you had chosen. Even though final outcomes were approximately the same, the differences were compelling enough to provide good replay value. Later iterations added paladin as an additional emphasis choice. The series rocked, and the second and fourth ones rocked hardest.

Don't you dare get rid of my Argonians..

The only thing they messed up was the lack of choice for initial skill boosts. It makes no sense at all that every single Breton has studied Conjuration and gets a boost in it, for example. That wouldn't happen even in the game world. Some Bretons would focus on Destruction, some on Conjuration, some on Illusion, etc. They are skilled MAGES in general, not simply skilled Conjurers (which is good because Conjurers and Necromancers are treated as evil enemies in the game world, after all).

As far as reactions, etc, keep in mind that the current state of the Empire is that it is falling apart. Just because you are of a certain racial heritage does not mean that you identify with that race, its current ideals andd political status, etc. For example, there are Redguards in Skyrim doing business, owning property, etc because their families are Imperial citizens (and Skyrim is one of the few provinces still officially part of the Empire). Technically, Hammerfell has been separated from the Empire and the Redguards in Hammerfell are rightfully angry with the Empire for this act. That does not mean that all Redguards everywhere share this view, or even that each and every Redguard in Hammerfell does. Same thing for the other races (e.g., I guarantee that there are Bosmer and Altmer who do not align themselves with the Aldmeri Dominion, including outright spies for the Empire as well as average citizens who privately hate what has happened in their homelands).

Yeah, same reason not every Cuban likes Castro, or every American likes their president.. Or even democracy, for that matter. Some Americans entertain thoughts of Nazism, for crissakes. And when it comes to fantasy, it shouldn't be more predictable..

When playing my Khajiit I bribe everyone I can including the guards at the gate.
I constantly pay off the beggars.. else they'd go running to the guards for a reward for turning me in.
It's all how you want it to be.

Racism is already a big spot in real live so why bother around with it in games too?


agreed

All of these races are redundant. Bethesda should force us all to be Nords.

/sarcasm

So I can be a Khajiit and call myself Lion-O, that's the point.

I just want more reaction from NPCs based on my race. Despite being a Dunmer, Ulfric Stormcloak talked to me like a was one of his Nordic warriors.

Because it's a ROLE playing game, where you can pick your own race. Also, story/conceptual, and look differences. As well as how people treat you. (Sometimes)

Correct and all these Points are done by Bethesda.

despite what you might think race does have to do with starting skill ranks for instance bosmer start out with higher sneak and archery then other races except maybe khajiit. just as orcs and nords get a good head start with smithing and one handed weapons. every race has different skill bonuses. also it may be hard to believe but people like options shocking eh?

Bretons are most adept at conjuration because it is an innate quality of the race. He can go about training any other skill any way he chooses, and become lax in magic, but that innate knowledge is his heritage.

You are wrong. Races have racial powers and some other things which are permanent (example water-breathing for Argonians and extra 50 points magicka for Altmer). What you are right about is there are still some parts of game which ignores your's race. But truth is that there are also several NPC's comments which are based on your race. But race's main purpose is roleplaying. TES games are for roleplaying. You can just play them if you wish but most of fans love to roleplay them. Personally I think I wouldn't play TES at all if there's no chance to choose your race. If I want to just play something I put on my 8-bit nintendo and have fun with Super Mario but if I want to roleplay and have a good and epic time I'll launch my Skyrim.

Now I have answered your question so I think it's your time to answer mine:
Are you serious or are you a troll?

Having consequences and making your choices have weight is not "Hand holding", if anything doing away with consequences and allowing anyone to do anything and everything no matter what choice he makes is actually the biggest thing dumbing down the series. If anything the biggest flaw with the Elder Scrolls games is too much freedom to the point that it makes a mockery of the lore, ruins the point of leveling and makes any choice you make (whether it be race or your actions in game) irrelevant.

I guess it is why the Elder Scrolls games will never be anything more than giant sandboxes and not respectable RPGs in their own right.


Let me ask you this, in doing what you describe are you actually playing the game Bethesda provides you or are you merely entertaining your own delusions? When playing a video game the experience needs to hinge off more than just your own imagination otherwise why bother with the video game at all? I think you would find swinging a cardboard tube at invisible monsters in your backyard a lot cheaper and pretty much offer the same experience that you are getting from the game.

I think you should go outside in the reality. Just because the people are playing and enjoying the game (while you aren't) they are stupid sheeps just because they aren't accepting your opinion??
http://picture.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/5645/Reality-2.jpg

And I thought I took RPGs seriously. lol

I'd say if anyone is that unhappy and has invested this much emotion, then it's time to make your own games. Stop being so dependant. It's only way to really get what you want.

I think about doing this myself, but I then..a few minutes pass and I have other things on my mind. The games usually entertain me enough as they are.