As if your avatar wasn't enough of an enticement to like you....

I think Bethesda will make it so that your choice in the civil war doesn't matter or is only referenced in the vaguest way possible. "And then Tamriel descended into warfare..." Pretty sure Cyrodiil is in for a civil war, as well, given the DB quest line.

The empire as it was up to this time seems to be on the way out, however. I hope they don't make a reboot that looks just like Oblivion with only surface changes. That would be the worst possible outcome IMO- because, egad, boring...

I agree with this.

I've always thought the lore will eventually keep the information about the civil war to the very minimum, and even stay vague about the outcome. I imagine the upcoming war with the Aldmeri Dominion will completely overshadow it. And besides, no matter which side wins, they probably end up working together (there's a victor and a loser after all, the loser should be incorporated to the winners as with every war) to stand a chance against the Thalmor & co. This war will also be devastating enough to fully erase any evidence of who the winner was during the civil war, as I heavily doubt it'll get solved quickly, even with the Dragonborn (it's quite wide-spread). So it's not like either the Stormcloaks or Imperials will take over business after this big war imho. If "our" side comes out as the vanquishers (most likely), then they'll probably be a mix of multiple races.

I suppose it isn't unrealistic to imagine that the Empire forced this idea into Elisif's head, "Torygg did support Ulfric's cause didn't he Elisif, and Ulfric slaughtered him without so much as a how do you do"

Oh, no, I agree with that. What I don't agree with is the idea that they're Beth's favorites (if they were, she would of done a better job on their province). The Empire has always seemed to me to be big picture types, just that they have to be " militaristic arseholes" to help their greater good. A recent example would be the signing of the White Gold concordat. The Empire felt (rightly or wrongly) that the only way to stop the dominion spreading and for the Empire to rebuild itself was to sign the treaty, though only, I'm sure, temporarily.
I think, at the end of the day, It's Beth putting forward two different philosophies. Should we make sacrifices for the long term good of all, or should we give short term personal freedoms to our people?

Negotiate what, exactly? If Torygg is determined to be loyal to the Empire and content to let Skyrim remain an Imperial province, with all that this entails under the current status quo, then from the position of someone who desires to bring about the exact opposite of that there is nothing to negotiate. What understanding would they come to? One in which Torygg assures Ulfric that sometime in the future it will all be better because the Empire is eventually gonna take it to the Dominion again and the WGC won't matter any more? That's not a negotiation, it's just telling Ulfric and others like him to accept the same old same old for another undefined period of time that will come to an end only when somebody down in Cyrodiil finally gets around to it. They've had 25 years of that already, they're not gonna "negotiate" for any more of it and if he is as loyal to the Empire as you say, then Torygg has nothing else to offer them.

Saying that there is no question about Torygg's loyalty to the Empire doesn't leave any room open for negotiation, from Ulfric's standpoint it rules it out completely. The whole point of the secessionist movement is that they're done waiting for the Empire to act, and want to be free of the restrictions that being an Imperial province places on them. If Torygg isn't able to offer them anything but more waiting then as far as they're concerned a change of leadership is the only way to go.


It's not just about being "too weak to rule," it's about being unfit to rule given the current situation. If there had never been a Great War, if the WGC had never been signed, if the Thalmor were not a very real once and future enemy whose agents are currently enjoying the run of the country and the freedom to abuse its people for their own ends, it might not matter if Torygg were more or less experienced or more or less loyal to the Empire or more or less willing to put up with the Thalmor setting up shop on his doorstep. But the situaton is what it is and nothing else, and so those things do matter to people who want that situation to change.


Evidence, please. AFAIK there is no specific reference to Torygg's age anywhere. Older and more battle-hardened people calling him a "boy" means nothing, I'm well into middle age and still get called "girl" by people who aren't even old enough to be my parents. And I've seen no one in the game call him a "boy" who isn't already looking for a reason to make Ulfric's actions appear as heinous as possible.


IMO the fact that Torygg wasn't a warrior was one of the very points Ulfric was trying to make when he challenged him. It's a warrior culture, being a warrior matters, especially for someone who is charged with leading the country. Hell, from what I understand even that milk-drinker Mede led his own troops in battle in the Great War, and to great effect. Could Torygg do the same, when the war that everyone agrees is coming actually occurs?


It's only shortsighted and immature if you agree that waiting on the Empire to act is the right thing to do. Not everybody feels that way. And I have to say that I was suprised at how impressed I was by Ulfric as a character after I spent a lot of time observing him and in dialogue with him. Most of the stuff that I'd read and heard from his detractors, I just didn't see. I don't see a nearsighted hothead given to frequent outbursts of childish temper when he doesn't get his way, in fact to me he comes across as one of the more temperate and "cooler customers" in the game.

This is how i see it happening.

There is no real Victor in the Civil War as the second Great War erupts, abruptly, during the civil war. The Stormcloaks, to weak to take on the Aldermeri Dominion alone agree to a treaty with the Empire. Together they will fight together, but in exchange for a cease on the in-fighting, Skyrim gets to govern itself. So the Stormcloak army and the Empire takes sides together and fight off the Aldemeri Dominion, this time with Dragonborn on there side, and the Gods in there favor, the war takes a posotive side for the Empire and they defeat the Aldemeri Dominion, kicking them back to Summerset Isles.

After the war is over, the White-Gold Concordinate is broken and a new treaty founded. With the new treaty, Skyrim agrees to re-join the Empire. In exchange Skyrim gets to govern itself.

I like that idea but who would rule skyrim in the next game?

Very well put. I've always had a strong consequentialist philosophy and thats why I love the empire. Ulfric just seems so....typical to me. The "fire-hearted rebel fighting for his freedom!" It gets old. The right thing isn't always the "heroic" thing. You'd be surprised how many times dirty politics has saved the lives and freedoms of citizens in real life in all countries.

@Lynn: several npcs reference Torygg as a "boy". Both imperials, neutral whiterun people, and I think even some stormcloaks condescendingly imply he was young. Also, he looks young. And being a warrior doesn't make you a good political leader. Like I said, Ulfric is an excellent warrior, but look at his city. Even if you dont think it's that bad you have to agree it's one of the less......stable towns. It's evidenced that it was like this before the war too. The fact that Ulfric thinks swinging a sword is the most important aspect of being a ruler, or at least a big enough aspect that you shouldn't rule otherwise, is evidence of his backwards thinking and incompetency in my opinion.

Most likely rule itself. I think the Empire is going to crumble regardless of what happens, it's an inevitability, every Imperial Empire has crumbled after a couple of centuries. It's now a winner takes all battle between the races, lawlessness and total war. Greed and ambition will be key characteristics in the race to build a new Empire. It will be interesting to see who forges it.

I don't think he believes any such thing, nor is the fact that he challenged Torygg to a duel evidence that he does believe it. Yes, making a point about Torygg's abilities (or lack thereof) was part of it, but IMO those things wouldn't be such a crucial issue if the situation were not what it is (at least in Ulfric's opinion).

And as far as I can tell, the challenge was the only way to make a change in leadership happen, regardless of the reason why the change was desired. IMO it's not like Ulfric picked that particular method only to highlight that he was a better fighter because it's the only thing that matters in his mind. He picked it because it was an accepted way of challenging a High King's right to rule. Whether the king has "lost" his right due to lack of martial prowess or for some other reason, the challenge would still be a valid method of attempting to get someone off the throne.