In theory I can make a jack of all trades with 100 in each skill, but it will be a lot less effective as a jack of al trades then a similar person in previous games thanks to the perks and the way they provide bonuses to your character. What I end up with is a more specialized and unique character then I had in Oblivion or Morrowind. My Assassin is good at sneaking, stealing and killing, however dress him up in heavy armor and give him atwo handed axe against an elder dragon and he will be struggling as he lacks the perks to make both heavy and two handed really useful. From the start the character generation isn't limited to this or that class, but to your imagination of your class. I play a nightblade type of assassin, he sneaks around, using Blade of Woe and some magic to help him get away from danger and control triky situations. My assassin in Morrowind and in Oblivin that also had the same starting point as I have today as a nightblade did this. The difference on my nightblade in Morrowind or Oblivion was that at high level they were jacks of all trades, it was not possible to avoid that from happening. On high level in Skyrim my nightblade is still an assassin, sure I can throw other spells, but I'm not really any useful with them. I miss the perks to make Destruction really effective, I miss the perks to make conjuration really powerful. I can heal myself, but I don't have any perks that will make my healing really good. So at level 81 I will have 100 in all skills, and he will still be an assassin. He can choose to wield a two handed axe and heavy armor, but without perks to back them up he is a lot less useful with these then a pure warrior would be. And here you have the biggest difference on previous TES games and Skyrim, while you did become as powerful as others in previous game by getting skill to 100, you will nt be able to achieve the same in Skyrim. So what starts as something that seems to end up as a jack of all trades will end up as something more unique at end levels then in previous games.

I hate it. Because of this, I might just blow my brains out. Life has no meaning anymore. If only someone made a true RPG again.

Skill trees finally added actual character development to TES. Before every character ended up exactly the same, with the only things distinguishing endgame characters from another were Birthsigns and Race, both of which are still in Skyrim.

I like the standing stones, although switching should (IMHO) have a quest associated with changing from one to another. Let the first pick be 'free' from the three stones near Riverwood.

I also like perks for exactly the same reason that Wayman stated.

To say that this game is no longer an rpg i utter crap. I've never rp'ed in any game as much as I've done in this game. The fact that you can choose everthing about your character makes for a perfect rp-experience. I've played a warrior, a thief/assassin and a mage thus far, and I can honestly say I've never had this much fun. Those of you saying this is no rp game must have a lack of imagination. All of my characters have had a purpose in the world of skyrim. The rp system in this game is so easily accessible that it makes for an easy rp adventure. I haven't put down so much time in a game since Dragon Age (although I must admit, I had more hours played in Oblivion) and it still feels fresh and exciting (unlike Oblivion and DA.)

Sorry about the rant. I'm just fed up with all the whine on this forum. Some of the whine might be justified but ever since the dawn of the internet community, everyone have shown too much critizism. Skyrim is the best game I've played since DA:O and that's saying alot.

I hope you're not replying to me.. I thought it was obvious I was being sarcastic.

I like the fact that their are no classes and birthsigns are now Standing Stones that you can choose and if you don't like one you can replace it with another.

Sometimes I really wonder whether all the 'it was better in Morrowind/Oblivion' people actually played either game that much. Birthsigns and any notion of 'class' were actually less meaningful (especially in Morrowind) in either game than they are in Skyrim. So if that is your test, then Skyrim's model is better by default.

There are some things about Skyrim that are 'dumbed down', it is a mainstream game after all, however for the most part you can just turn off your quest marker and the gameplay is just an improved version of what's gone before. I'm amazed by so many of the complaints towards the game, 90% of them don't seem based on any kind of realistic recollection of the previous games.

I weren't replying to you, I was replying to those that are overly critical about a game! When modders get their hands on this beauty I think most flaws will go away.

I think it's great. Especially the perk system allows for true roleplay, rather then setting a class at the beginning.
I like the fact that you can't be a master of all in Skyrim, instead you're more focusses on a small group of skills that you chose as you see fit (like in other RPGs with set classes like D&D). the fact that you can do this as you go along is even better.
It will be very hard to go back to Morrowind and Oblivion where I'll have to lock my character in a class right away. In Skyrim I just save up my points until I know for sure where I want to spend them, it's not unusual for me to have 2-4 points spare for when I need them.

The stones are great as well. Again, in a game where you spend hundreds of hours with a character that might turn out very different then you imagined when you started it's nice to have flexability to chose as you see fit as you go along, rather then at the beginning.

Agreed. I've restarted too many characters in both oblivion and morrowind because of that.

I feel the Skyrim approach is more... intuitive and natural. And IMO you end up with a unique character based on what you did rather than what you chose (perks notwithstanding).

It's a pity though that the quests have no... filters? for various character builds. All quests seem appropriate for all character types.

Do you guys hear yourselves???

Last time I checked, one of the greatest elements in RPG's is making choices and creating your own story. BUT....

Your essentially telling Bethesda to make choices for you and follow a linear progression of character development. AND...

In the end your complaining that it's NOT an RPG!!!

Classes were always just titles, there were no real classes. Makes no difference to me.

I prefer birthsigns over the standing stones however, which I mostly used to level enchanting/smithing faster, then switched to Lord because it's hands down the best. Birthsigns felt like more a part of my character, while the stones were kind of...game-y I guess.

Maybe it's because I never played any other TES games, but I really like the way Skyrim is set up.

In other games, you choose your class by clicking something in a character creation screen. In Skyrim, you choose your class by... acting like that class! Want to be a mage? Use magic! Warrior? Put on heavy armor and grab a sword and shield, and get to hacking! Thief? Start sneaking everywhere, put on light armor, and attack from the shadows. Your class is defined by your actions, because the skills you use the most are the ones that will improve the fastest. You're a warrior, because you ACT like a warrior, not because you clicked on "warrior" in the character creation menu. MUCH better system in my opinion.

Same with the standing stones. I don't know what birth signs did, but it sounds like they gave certain perks, and that you picked them (yet again) at the character creation screen. I like the standing stones because you are shown three basic ones at first, and then you learn about others as you explore (unless you prefer to ruin your experience by looking up spoilers, but that's your own fault).

Skyrim is unique, in that really the ONLY think you choose at character creation is what your character looks like, including its race. Everything else is something you can evolve your character into over time.

Exactly. You are creating your own story! You just don't make all the choices in the character selection screen. If you decide to play as a barbarian in skyrim you will end up as a barbarian as much as you would in other games. It's called imagination, get some

"play the way they want to or go away"

thats what your post says to me, yet you pretend it doesnt in the post. Interesting

"Sometimes I really wonder whether all the 'it was better in Morrowind/Oblivion' people actually played either game that much. Birthsigns and any notion of 'class' were actually less meaningful (especially in Morrowind) in either game than they are in Skyrim. So if that is your test, then Skyrim's model is better by default."

Um, I still have both games installed ON my HD and still *gasp* play them cause I liked that system better

"Agreed. I've restarted too many characters in both oblivion and morrowind because of that."

restaring and not being able to pick one character IS the issue Im having with THIS game cause I get bored without having any structure to the game.

I guess the main difference between the "old" and the "new" sytems is that the old system, you created your character at the start then played within the limits and abilities of that character from the start. With the new system, those limits and abilities become apparent as you play, so you get to direct your character by how you play.

In both systems, you define your character. In one, you define it all at once at the beginning & add in strengths, and in the other you define it as you go along, making strength decisions along the way.

Sound about right?

The birth sign was cool, but I don't really care enough to reminisce about it.

Classes I can do with or without. I ended up being a hybrid anyway. I was a Battlemage then. Still a Battlemage now. Only difference is I don't have the title hanging over my head.

And here's the best part - the Guardian Stones?

Are.

Not.

Birthsigns.



They're more powerful http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Magical_Stones, which were already in Oblivion and worked basically the same way - they're marked with constellations, give you a power when you activate them, and you can only have one active at a time. Yeah, in Skyrim they're mostly all passive powers rather than the Greater Powers that they were in Oblivion, but the basic game mechanic is the same.

Birthsigns? Those were removed.

----

As for Classes.... no, don't miss them. I only used them in Oblivion to metagame "controlled leveling" (pick Major skills you won't use but can train easily, play your character using Minor skills, train up the Majors to force a level when your Stat bonuses have reached +5), so they really didn't mean anything in the long run.

(Birthsigns never really mattered either. Most of them had useless or incredibly situational bonuses, so I just grabbed Thief every time for the three +10 stat bonuses. No big loss.)


disclaimer: IMHO

I love how people say things that don't follow the D&D class system are not RPG. News flash, D&D does not define RPG, D&D was a latecomer to the table for folks who lacked the immagination, creativity and attention span to do real role playing.

Not that I'm part of the "we need classes" bandwagon, but....



Yes. D&D was a latecomer.

You still fail to answer my query, agility and speed are part of the perk system.

See: Dual wielding attack speed, lockpicking, pickpocketing, etc.

Everything from prior TES is still implemented, save for a few minor crafting or equipment issues.

If you absolutely feel you must stick to a stereotype (archetype), then you have every means at your disposal to do so.

This game was about creating a more fluid and dynamic (hard to understand term, but just look it up I know) character, it doesn't mean just because you can cast a spell and wield a sword or hold a shield that is an action game.

Let me know when we can juggle NPC's, or when the sole attribute is health... then you have an argument.

If you're buffing health solely, or any attribute, you are playing the game wrong imho.

Everything is still there, nothing has changed significantly save for the few minor changes.

Pauldrons, spell-crafting, etc...

Which I would like to see as said, but it is not game-breaking. Every single aspect of traditional RPG Mage/Thief/Warrior mechanics is there, its up to you how you spend your perks. Of course, the perks are permanent... hence lending a sense of consequence as a nod to previous installments. The Standing Stones are really neat too, you'll find that one day you want one and the next... well...

Just progress, that is all.

same here. Loving the freedom, 300+hrs in on my first character. Planning on doing many different characters. I guess I will be playing this for years like the fallout series. Now as for not an RPG what a load of twaddle.