well, by committing the reserves they would no doubt defeat the remaining legions, but at that point their manpower is just insufficient to maintain control over the entire continent, especially since you would have rather large and effective resistance movements rising to combat the vile elven supremicists.

The argument can be made that Medes II should have considered this, but for him to do that he would have had to have a rough idea of the type of reserves they had, and for that he'd need spies and intelligence networks. And for those, he'd need the Blades, who, due to their orders, but also likely do to arrogance, were all but wiped out for believing themselves more than a match for Thalmor agents.

So, to sum up, by the time Cyrodill is reclaimed:

-Medes II's legions are decimated

-the entire empire is war weary

-the cities of the empire lie in ruins

-likely thousands of her civillians have been murdered

-he has no intelligence on the Aldmeri Dominion's lands

-no idea the type of reserves they possess, but every idea the reserves the empire possesses: none.

the deck is just stacked against the empire too much. calling a possible bluff from the Thalmor would have possessed far too great of a risk to the survival and safety of all of tamriel.

There is nothing that says that Skyrim would not become allies with the empire against the AD. The real enemy is the AD. Skyrim ATM is officially led by weak leaders. I think Ulfric is the strongest leader they have. Talos is important to preventing the unraveling of the world. I cannot understand why the Emperor allowed the banning of his worship in the treaty. Signing a treaty ceding territory (Elsweyr, Valenwood and Blackmarsh which they couldn't hold anyway) would have been one thing. This was another. Then they threw in Hammerfell??? The empire is in decline. It is basically Skyrim and Cyrodiil. So what difference does it make if Skyrim secedes from the empire? The AD will never make it over the Jerralls They are way too defensible. An alliance with Hammerfell and High Rock is possible. That Skyrim didn't do all it could to help Hammerfell? That could be blamed on the Empire very easily, not an independent Skyrim under new leadership.

If the Empire military could get its [censored] together, I don't think it's any contest. Tullius makes at least a couple of references to having requested reinforcements from Cyrodiil. If he got those and could hold command, I think the Empire would stand a much better chance than Ulfric and his band of merry men.

That being said, and my lore knowledge is admittedly weak, but didn't the Aldmeri Dominion eat their lunch in the War?

The Jerralls too defensible point is almost a mirror image to what the French said about the Ardennes. The Germans proved them wrong. Twice.

It's a very dangerous assumption in war to say that "there's no way they can do this" or "this is impenitrable." War is almost always decided on uncertainties and the unexpected.

High Rock is still part of the Empire.

a military force is more efficient when centralized under one "supreme" leader (as in one person in charge of all forces, with unit commanders at different levels of command hierarchy). When you have two nations that refuse to put their forces under the command of each other (eg, stormcloaks refusing to serve under a legion commander) you open the door to political complications and diveging national interests. The first month of ww1 was utterly devastating and almost saw the successful conquest of France in large part due to the differing war goals of the british and french. It was only when the two parties finally agreed to fight in unison that they managed to halt the German advance.

That also makes the point of failure have a larger impact on military effectiveness.

Ulfric. New leader, new cause, new tactics.

1. Ulfric is a political as well as a military leader

2. The empire fought and lost. After which it got even weaker. And divided. A shadow of its former self, humiliated, bereft of fighting spirit, morally bankrupt because of the collaboration with the Thalmor. It suffers the fate of so many empires once the inevitable downward spiral has begun. It will not rise again.
The redguards showed what can be done when a free people rises against the tyranny. The Nords and the other peoples need to do the same.

3. If numbers don't suffice, guerillla will be most effective. The Nords are fighting on their own soil. A war of attrition is the worst case scenario for the Thalmor. Every success will swell the ranks of the rebels.

Guerilla Warfare only works if there are Civilians, the Rebels could use for Hiding and Supplies... As the Thalmor don't care for Civilians of other Races their Battlemages would just burn through Skyrim, leaving nothing behind but ashes. You would have to confront them diretctly or not at all... So the Empire has to do it just my humble opinion

Ah, we've gotten in to Godwin's Law already. But we shall explore this. We are comparing apples to oranges. The Jerrals are very steep mountains and there are perhaps two passes into Skyrim that need to be defended. The rest of the terrain is impassible unless you can levitate entire legions over them which would require something on the scale far greater than the Oblivion crisis. The Ardennes were relatively flat in comparison. They were thick forest with hedge rows. There is a difference between going through trees and going through granite.

Now from the North by sea. We are seeing Skyrim in late summer early autumn. This is not winter. Whiterun? Think Winterhold in the middle of winter. The nation has more in common with Finland than with France, and I'm not talking about the more temperate southern region around Helsinki. Possibly the only port open in the winter is Solitude, but the rest is frozen solid. Elven troops in mid winter vs. seasoned Nords? Not pretty. Not pretty at all. They'd have to win in the short summer months or it would be all over.

We'll die with swords in our hands rather than submit to the tyranny of the Dominion or their lackeys. They will over extend themselves if they dare come into Skyrim. And look at the bright side for the Empire. They can pull their troops out of Skyrim and move them back to Cyrodiil.

All Hail to Ulfric!
You are the High King!
In your great honor
We drink and we sing!

There's no proof that it can't recover. Versidue-Shaie and his son kept the Reman Empire going for over 400 years after the death of its Dragonborn emperors, even bringing it back from the brink of destruction at one point. The only reason the current empire is declining is because of the Thalmor, not because it's decaying from within. And the Legion is far from incompetent: aside from the Battle of the Red Ring, I seem to recall them successfully ambushing and capturing Ulfric himself.

I feel it is more likely for a Cyrodiilic-Breton-Nordic army to prevail over the Thalmor than a Stormcloak army, even if the Stormcloaks do try to resort to guerilla warfare. And it'd also be a lot better for the rest of Tamriel.

Edit: Also, as I recall, the Akaviri stomped Skyrim until Reman showed up.

My point wasn't necessarily to say that the Jerralls aren't traversable. My point was mainly to say if the enemy really wants to get in, they will find a way. The Aldmeri Dominion is home to really the best mages in Tamriel. Wouldn't surprise me if they can create portals to transport troops, or other crazy magical stuff. Magic alone makes it utterly impossible to get an accurate idea. Considering the pretty much accepted logic of the largely boundless possibilities with magic, you're best to not pin your best chance on one line of defense. Besides, you're thinking defensive. The war would probably require you to think offensive too if you want to bring an end to the dominion once and for all.

I have nowhere near your knowledge of the history of Tamriel. But I do know something about our own history, in as much this could be applied to this situation. And this shows me an Empire in rapid decline. Much like Byzantium after the battle of Manzikert.

I also know of many examples of small rebellions that produced enormous and unexpected results.

I have the impression that a lot of people rely on a mathematical approach to calculate the chances of the Empire and the Stormcloaks against the Thalmor. The empire is bigger, has more soldiers and more resources, but these assets are shrinking. The Stormcloaks have a cause, figthing spirit and a charismatic leader. These assets seem more important in the battle that is to come.

You are right, I have no proof. I'm just going with what I know and rely on my gut feeling for the rest.

If one man can run into the Thalmor Embassy and Northwatch Keep and murder through all the Thalmor in there without a problem, then it won't even take a whole army to crush those whelps.

Besides, whichever faction doesn't matter as long as the Shezzarine is on their side.

Poem on the death of the Empire:

"My name is Tiber Septim, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away"

kinda Ironic that the Ones claiming to fight for the Worship of Talos, are the same people trying to destroy everything that he achieved during his lifetime ^^

No facts in this statement.

Touché.

But it was not the Stormcloaks who threw away his legacy. That was the Empire, when they stopped fighting, ceded territories, let in the occupation troops and allowed the persecution of Talos worship, knowing full well what the Nordic reaction would be.

We'll drive out the Empire
From this land that we own
With our blood and our steel
We will take back our home.


We're the children of Skyrim
We fight all our lives
When Sovengarde beckons
Every one of us dies!

This is a people fighting for their homeland.

---------

But then, my Dovakiin is female. Ulfric is male and single. I would make a good queen and ensure continuation of the dragonborn lineage.

I support this, but Ulfric isn't a Dovahkiin.

I think that the Empire is better equipped to fight the Thalmor, particularly the Empire and Skyrim together. However, it doesn't matter one lick how equipped the Empire is if they are unwilling to do it. Skyrim alone has a better chance of defeating the Thalmor than the Empire who doesn't even bother to try. People say that eventually the Empire will, but who is to say that this is true? And how long must people wait? It's been 20 years already. Children born during the war are advlts now. I think that Skyrim can do it. They may not be as well-equipped, but I still think they can at LEAST keep the Thalmor out of their lands. Maybe not defeat them entirely, but they can keep the Thalmor out of Skyrim. Heck, I can single-handedly keep those losers out of Skyrim.


Hate to break it to you, but he aint single. He and Galmar Stone-fist are obviously more than just war buddies. There's a reason Ulfric isn't popping out any spawn anytime soon. He already has a teddy bear to sleep with and he doesn't need anyone else!

Ozymandias by Shelley.

There are no facts in pretty much every Discussion on the Empire vs. Stormcloak Topic. Just different Interpretations and Opinions of what happens in Skyrim (The Game) and the TES-Lore, and most of the Lore is not even proven "Game-history", just Books written by unknown. Beth can change and bend the Lore how it fits them best for the next game, in the End Beth decides what happens/happened in TesVI

Excellent counter-point!

Ah, I thought I recognized that poem from somewhere.

Who says the line has to be passed on by the male?