The Stormcloak vs. Empire question has been done to death.

Now we've discussed Tullius vs. Ulfric.

Now here's an interesting question, which is better poised to go after the Aldermeri Dominion?

Empire

Pro

* Tullius talks about the reason he can't go after the Stormcloaks is because the majority of the Legions are tied up protecting the borders against the Thalmor.

* He talks about how they're the real enemy.

Con

* The Thalmor have more or less free access to eliminate people left and right throughout the Empire. They're also making quislings left and right (Maven Black Briar and other people at the parties).

Stormcloaks

Pro

* Ulfric is against them, just like Tullius.

* A Pro-Talos policy is just as likely to loathe the Thalmor as anyone else and be motivated against them.

Con

* The Aldermeri Dominion has no treaty with skyrim and it could be that they will have no reason to march against them. The Aldermeri Dominion can after the remaining human settlements before Skyrim.

(Assuming they can since Hammerfall is still in dispute)

Well, if Ulfric had Wuuthrad he might stand a chance against the AD, but since it's locked away safely in my place in Whiterun, I'd say both of them will likely get crushed.

I feel sort of guilty. I gave the blacksmith that legendary blade of a lost queen to give to Ulfric then retrieved the Jagged Crown for the Empire.

But yes, Ulfric could well be defacto High King with a bunch of puppets if the Dragonborn hands over the war to him. However, the requirement for this is still to kill a [censored] of Nord warriors with the Legion.

One bad fact is that the Legion isn't foreign troops, they're local volunteers.

Either way, Skyrim may be in no shape for Great War 2.

Ulfric has the ability to start the fight but not to finish, Tullius is a far smarter and more capable military leader and despite the empire suffering technical issues at the moment, I feel a reunified empire is the only one that can stand against the Thalmor.

Yeah, the story would be more ambiguous if Ulfric presented a plan that lead to a military alliance against the Thalmor. However, I don't think he possesses the military savvy or diplomacy to pull something like that off.

The charisma to non-Nords either.

I think the Empire is better prepared, IMO the Stormcloaks don't have much of a chance.

Empire: It's a [censored] Empire.
Skyrim: It's just one province, at best they can ally with Hammerfell and go two against what? Three? Four? Thalmor provinces.

Though Ulfric does mention he doesn't plan on fighting the Thalmor alone. His last words on the matter are "Skyrim will lead Tamriel in the fight against the Thalmor"

only the empire can beat the thalmor.

the stormcloaks are strong, but the way they think is way too simple. one problem is already that they refuse to use magic, while the thalmor got very, very strong mages... if not the strongest mages on tamriel. and the thalmor use all possible cheap tricks, while the stormcloaks are way too much into the whole pride thing and would start a blind war.

Just think if the voice comes into play again.(I'm quite sad the college of the voice was left out of markarth)

There's also the drawback on the Stormcloak side that they have no allies and they've made an enemy of both Cyrodiil and High Rock. They also can't exactly march against the Thalmor, since the only way to get to them is to go through Cyrodiil.

Honestly, neither unless your character is involved in some way.

The Empire is weaken and at the sign of losing they'll just sign another damn treaty.

As for the Stormcloaks, I am a supporter, but I just don't see a bunch of them taken up arms and defeating The Thalmor.

It could go any which way. There aren't just political and strategic forces at work, but mythic ones, too. Weakening Talos is probably the empire's biggest mistake IMO.

High Rock will be forced to ally with Skyrim, I think. What else can they do, since they are isolated from the empire?

Trickier and more important IMO is for Skyrim to ally with Hammerfell. That will not be easy, either. The one dungeon with the crazy mage trying to avenge her husband's death gives a hint that people in Hammerfell think Skyrim didn't help them when the empire hung them out to dry, so why should they help Skyrim.

All of these countries are going to have to swallow their differences and make common cause to survive. That includes an independent Skyrim and post-empire Cyrodiil.

Or they could end up hating the Nords for cutting them off.

I don't recall Ulfric taking that into account when he rebelled against the Empire. If he thinks Skyrim is better off without the Empire, fine. But he should at least wait until the Thalmor were no longer a threat or perhaps gone to the Imperials with the knowledge that the Thalmor were trying to instigate a rebellion in Skyrim. I think he'd relish the chance to torture Elenwen for information that could lead to the end of the Concordat terms.

Edit: But he didn't, and instead began a rebellion just like the Thalmor wanted him to.

The problem being of course that the empire is bent over and just taking it from the Thalmor, even to the point of being willing to use the Thalmor to aid their aims in Skyrim. With friends like that, you don't need enemies. The empire is dragging Skyrim down with it due to its weak, corrupt leadership and its willingness to exploit its provinces for Cyrodiil's gain. If Cyrodiil doesn't have Skyrim's support by legal obligation, then they're going to have to start acting like a free country should when building alliances with another free country.

Please. Skyrim wasn't the only province that revered Talos, I'm sure there are plenty of Thalmor Justiciars in Cyrodiil telling the Imperials who the can and cannot worship. Unless, of course, the only purpose they're going after Talos worshipers is to prompt Nords to rebel. And the Empire is certainly not using the Thalmor, even if the Thalmor at times give the illusion of occasionally helping with Stormcloaks. The Imperials probably hate the Thalmor even more than the Nords. And unlike the Stormcloaks, they can see that the rebellion is exactly what the Thalmor want.

If anyone's dragging anything down, it's the Thalmor and Ulfric dragging the Empire down.

No, they're trying to destroy Talos' worship because they actually believe they can kill Talos and help undo the world that way.

For those who played Oblivion there was a huge Talos statue in the Imperial City and he was worshiped as much as any of the other gods. So, yes, presumably there's plenty of others.

Maybe, but they were the ones that engineered the Stormcloak rebellion, resulting in half of Skyrim worshing Talos openly. And they don't want the rebellion to end any times soon. If they are indeed following the plan detailed in MK's well-known quote, they're taking their time.

Sure, but it was Mede who made the anti-Talos ban official and started putting out propaganda against Talos worship. As Ondolemar says, the WCG made Talos worshippers not only heretics but traitors, and made support of the Thalmor part of the imperials' duty.

Normally when you have a cease fire, neither side is happy and both have to give up something. What exactly did the Thalmor give up? The WCG was a terrible move. Not only did the imperials give up their strongest weapon (Talos) and alienate their strongest support base (Skyrim), they also handed the Blades over and unwittingly contributed to Alduin nearly destroying the world.

Sure they're using them- see, Thorald Grey-Mane. Whether they hate them or not, their actions don't show it.

I think you're playing a bit too much into this Imperial anti-Talos thing. The Imperials aren't arresting people for worshiping Talos. In fact, it seems they're making an effort to look the other way. It is the Thalmor that arrest Talos worshipers and deem them heretics. Considering Cyrodiil, unlike Skyrim, borders two Dominion provinces, it's hard to blame the Imperials for not being as openly hostile towards the Thalmor as the Nords.

Yes in hindsight the Concordat was a bad move. But as I've said before, hindsight is 20/20. As I said before, a lot of the Empire supported it simply because it would end the wear. And as I've said before, when the hostilities between the Empire and Dominion are reopened in the near future, the Concordat will be invalidated and the mannish nations will get a final chance to redefine who they can and cannot worship. And I feel that with with a three province Empire than a two province Empire and a Stormcloak Skyrim that hates them.

They're not using them. They're merely aware of the fact of the Thalmor arresting a Stormcloak supporter.

Edit: I don't think either of us will be convinced of the other side. Neither side wants to change their mind and decide that they chose "incorrectly". Personally, I'd like to see DLC that continues the story and in the end ensures that either side can work out.

Tullius could intervene for Thorald's release, though, and he doesn't. Granted he's walking a politician's line, but it's convenient for him to have the Thalmor rounding up Stormcloak supporters. He also defends Elenwen's right to be at the cease fire, calling her "part of the imperial delegation." This is why I say- you only ever see the empire giving in to the Thalmor, never the reverse. The WGC was not a two-way cease fire, it was virtual surrender.

I do hope that Cyrodiil gets its act together, but they'll have to do so under the watchful eye of their enemy. Just look at any battle in history. Having direct, verifiable intelligence on enemy positions and capability is an overwhelming advantage. With luck, the man races will get an assist from Altmer resistance and dissenters from the beast races and Bosmer. The empire could have an advantage there, unless anti-imperial feeling is strong in those places.

Me. I'd [censored] destroy them all with my bare hands.

it's this exact point that makes me think the Thalmor had significant reserves to throw at the empire, and it was only the wgc that kept them from launching against already ravaged cyrodiil and the empire's cripple legions.

Or they were completely bluffing, and were shocked to find that Mede did not capitalize on his victory. That makes more sense to me. If they really had all those reserves, what on Mundus would stop them from just attacking?