Did you hand-make the stamp that you use to make the bottlecaps?

As for Falcon509's PoliSci argument...

Iron Law of Oligarchy.

The oligarchs manipulate the people into wanting to put them in power. I won't go into real-life examples because the most prominent example is a bit too current.

*DELETE, Incorrect button, pressed "reply" instead of "edit"* :facepalm:

There comes a point when people have to be accountable for their decisions. Pawning the responsibility off on others because you were "persuaded" to support someone is hardly a argument for your innocence regarding society's failings.

Another argument for another time perhaps... I don't want to derail the thread.

Thats the thing today isn't it, its never "your fault". XD

Anyway, I still think they should have moved away from caps by now. Mostly because NCR has a manufacturing economy now. As does many of the villages around the lands. In fallout 2 pretty much all the cities had some type of products, may of which where processed in some way. There was also quite a few big caravan trading companies that moved all this stuff around. I would think a New form of money would have been made. (Like the coins in FO2.)

I think we're (including me) oversimplifying the establishment of currency though. A currency not backed by anything is going to have less value. If the NCR had a valuable commodity backing their currency then it would be worth more, like bottlecaps were. Boradam touched on this problem earlier:



If the Brotherhood of Steel did ruin the Gold Reserves of the NCR, then the currency would be worthless because of that. A (relatively) simple solution would be to adopt a new commodity to back the currency.

Well is the US dollar only worth what it is because the US government says it's worth it? Once you get more stable governments and economies you can start to do stuff like that. Have a guaranteed rate of exchange for your products. So the NCR can print money and set it's value. It says we'll give you say x NCR bucks for y 5.56mm rounds or what ever you like.

I didn't realize we are not using caps in FO2 until I found the stash; as years past it bugs me more and more.

Maybe it is tolerated in FO2, but I doubt you can pull that off in any up coming games.

I mean even the whole gold mine thing is stupid; why would people desire gold in post-apocalypse? It took humanity thousands of years to agree that rare metal should be the standard currency; then another thousand year to create a system which you don't need to present those rare metal in people's face.

IT was there because NCR was the big dog in the region. They where trying to make there legal tender the new currency of the lands.

Yeah that's basically how we do it (very basically heh) but if your economy tanks, you're screwed. The NCR is in the middle of a huge war with a formidable enemy and as we know from history, war puts a huge strain on any economy. Having a backed currency, while not necessarily gold in the NCR's case, would be more stable than just setting a value and hoping people outside the nation accepts the value.

I have no doubt that the citizens of the NCR see little to no problem with their paper money. The problem with representative currency just becomes more apparent when you begin trading with another group/nation/tribe/power/etc.

Well, they (let's call them the Shmanclave) had a lot of power, but not enough to make the kinds of sweeping changes to the world they wanted to as quickly as they wanted to because there were too many obstacles. They created the vaults, which would allow them to hand-pick the people they wanted to use to populate their imagined new world while simultaneously molding them to their exact specifications. After that all they had to do was destroy the existing world along with all of their "obstacles" and rebuild it according to their vision. Viola, they can now get girls to like them. Win.


If it's so stupid then why did many different cultures come to the same conclusion independent of one another?

Vault Tec was 'preparing for the worst' In truth alot of it was experimenting very random experiments supposedly to test possible events when they attempt to repopulate on another planet. But Vault Tec pretty much intentionally designed the experiments to fail. Even Vault 101 and Vault 112 failed under all technicallitys. Vault 101 had been opened, and Braun went from savior to sadistic bastard.

Depends on if they want what your trading. As long as you can produce products that others want your currency will remain valuable. Since outsiders will have to convert to your money to deal with you effectively. I'm also not really sure how taxing this "war" is on NCR. Since they are the size of several states and they are really just attacking a city.

You are right about the cost of the war. It's pretty hard to determine that at least. They've been holding the same position though for what, two years? That can't be good for any economy. Free societies get tired of war quickly.

Regarding trade though, you have the right idea. The other group would need to have something of equal value to trade though. Water or food would be decent commodities probably. Concrete seems to be valuable to the NCR as well.

Softnerd: It is stupid because it didn't happen over night, unlike the case with NCR.

Andiaus: I guess my problem with NCR notes is why doesn't it build on top of the established cap system, i.e. 5cap NCR notes instead of 5 NCR dollar.

I would guess because they want to get rid of the old system not keep it around.

Not trying to be argumentative...just curious why that matters.

I'm surprised no one has brought this up yet: The most logical form of post apocalypse currency is bullets (and the energy weapon equivalents). They're durable, lightweight, and small. Most importantly they're intrinsically valuable and need no artificial backing. You can't counterfeit a bullet. Groups and individuals that make new bullets would be wealthy, and they should be because they're simultaneously making a useful commodity.

It's a shame no Fallout has considered this.

Because a bullet is more useful as a defensive measure than a currency. Bottlecaps cannot be counterfeited either (excluding the counterfeiter shack in NV) But the currency deemed 'counteterfeit' were brand new and pressed from the old cap press machines in the Sunset Sarsaprilla building. The bottlecap is generally accepted because most people KNOW it exists and that people will likely use it. Look at the Legion, their money is the gold itself, so their currency is worth 5x what the NCR is worth.

-If my post doesnt make sense, its 5:00 AM and I havent slept yet :laugh:

I think it'd be cool actually. Defending yourself would be more costly and therefore would give the money and ammo more importance (since they're the same thing). It would also give Energy Weapons, Explosives, Melee, and Unarmed Weapons more of a bonus too because you could use those without costing you your paycheck. You could leave guns as powerful as they are since your ammo is your money, not to mention give people the much clamored money-sink they've been wishing for.

The easiest way to implement this would be to give each ammo type a value that acts like a different denomination. A really cool idea.

Technically this is already in the game...since ammo does have a caps value....

Ammunition could not work as a monetary unit. Why? It is a consumable. Money basically has the only express use as a means of commercial exchange. Ammunition? Its express purpose is to get shot out of a gun. Money may have improvised uses, like kindling or coin shot, but that's not its original intended use.

It can have a monetary value associated with it, just like all other goods, and subject to variance by market demand and bartering skill between the buyer and seller, but as an actual money unit? Nope.

Ammunition is a good, not money.

Actually, gold was not "agreed upon". It was arrived to, by most cultures.

A material used as currency must be durable, portable, easily divisible, easily identifiable and in steady demand. Metals fit the bill, so in all cultures with access to metal, it was used. Among metals, gold was optimal for currency because it was just about indestructible (didn't rust, didn't it was malleable enough to be easily tested for purity with a touchstone or even one's teeth, it was rare and it was in demand due to its use in jewelry, embroidery and decoration.

Metallic bottle caps do not make a whole lot of sense as currency really. They rust over time, get deformed, the paint comes off, there is no real way to tell real from fake, and the shape is not well suited for carrying large amounts.

JE Sawyer's answers to currency questions:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Ausir/J.E._Saywer_post_roundup

http://www.xtimeline.com/evt/view.aspx?id=59922

Tobacco was used as both a currency and commodity... Just because you can use something, doesn't mean it's ruled out as a currency.

Its hard to stop a country from nuking you in the first place, especially when you were attacked first.



Or just extremely desperate. Maybe even suicidal to the point where its a "If I go down you go down" mentality.



I think it was stated that the NCR was going to try and back their economy with filtered and unradiated Water. I could be wrong on that though.