I can understand clashes with the quantity of voice acting required, and the radiant quests, and wouldn't mind an "I'll just mark that on your map" for the fourth book I have to collect from a random location for the same npc, but really have trouble with main quest, faction, and indeed any quest that has a fixed objective location not having directions. Even given that, the journal should have some vague directions.
You get one woman if you follow the instructions at the beginning, and some few others who are heading that way anyhow that you can follow. How hard would lines like "Dustman's Cairn. Can't miss it. Big hole in the ground, foot of the mountains, just head North-West from the gates" be if only given for more major quests?

You know what? I also hate the compass sometimes, but do you know what I do? I turn the mother [censored] quest off so there is no compass arrow...


I agree Bethesda should have taken the time to make it an option to show/not show the quest indicators, but it is also extremly easy to do it yourself.

I don't know about Skyrim - I played a couple of hours and uninstalled (couldn't get into it, so I'm waiting for DLC/mods) - But FO:NV went down from masterpiece to good in my estimation because quests were designed around fast travel. Talk to A who sends you to other side of the map to talk to B, who sends you back to A, to B, to A..... Unless you want to trudge back and forth through the empty desert for days fast travel is a requirement.

I'm an old time gamer so I expect complicated puzzles. Even shooters used to have puzzles and hidden switches that you spent weeks hunting for (no instant internet walkthroughs back in the day). Now everything is just handed to the player. I liked the fact that it took me ages to find a dungeon in Morrowind: 'Go to the imperial fort and turn left over the bridge...' What? WHERE?! What Bridge?.... When you DO finally find it (after back tracking and starting from square one couple of times) there's a real sense of accomplishment. Video games don't do anything for your body so they should exercise your brain a little.

yep. I was amazed when I first realised in Oblivion that the compass was showing me everything around me- EVERYTHING. I could not understand what made anyone think this was a good idea. It totally ruined discovery. What was I, a robocop with a radar? How do I know where everything is like this in a medieval world with no high computer tech?

I don`t care if I miss a cave, I just don`t want that. It also totally blew immersion-

Agreed. I miss riddles and puzzles too which were once a staple diet of rpgs. Entertainment and exercise the brain too- Win\win. But today the attitude is treat people like idiots who can`t do anything because it might hurt their minds to think a moment.

Make the compass completely opaque and you can't see it on the screen.

Turn off the quest marker and bam! you are free from guidance.

Why oh why do we have to have this discussion over and over and over (and over) again?

Nothing either sides of this discussion brings up is new, but what we will in the end of 7 pages come to conclusion is this:

"Yes, more detailed quest-logs that make us able to find a quest by only reading our journal would be a nice addition, as long as quest arrows and compass is still in the game. Sadly, that is not the case and will never be the case in Skyrim, unless you download mods. Here's to hoping they get it right in TES 6, Skyrim is such a terrible game."

Yes, but Bethesda in their wisdom also make your health and stamina bars vanish with it too. The health bar is essential in a fight. they should have given us the option of keeping the bars up.

I guess Beth Devs must be like some forumers here who don`t think of these little details.

Speak for yourself

When you say we... you put words in my mouth... which i do not agree with

Do you think everybodys opinion is like your own... NO IT ISN'T

The original Fallout, which some few might consider a masterpiece, requires you to fast travel. In New Vegas, fast travel is only optional. I think you are exaggerating the significance of fast travel.

Having all quest objectives conveniently near to the quest-giver might make more 'game' sense for those who don't want to travel on foot and see the sights, but it doesn't make any 'in-game' sense. I can see it all now : "All the quest dungeons are five minutes away. No incentive to explore/ruins my immersion/more hand-holding".

Easy solution is to turn of the quest arrows since, you know, it is now possible. As for the compass: The only thing I see as wrong with the compass is that it highlights locations. The minimap in Morrowind also worked as a compass since up was always north, down was always south and so on.

Personally I would be lost most of the time without quest markers, I would like the option to be led to the actual cave by a marker but then have the marker dissapear once inside. If was no arrow to dungeons it would just mean pulling up the map every couple of seconds to make sure I was still heading in the general direction.

I have already responded to the proposed 'solution' to turn it off. The problem is that all the quests are designed around using map markers and quest markers, where the examples of the treasure maps proves that this isn't necessary.

I am saying, that if I (as in me, not everyone else, me, in my opinion) had designed the quests in Skyrim I would have designed them around using the fantastic and amazingly unique landscape and terrain that the art designers have built. Instead of a quest marker pointing the player to a location in the Reach I would have given them instructions to find the forsworn camp southwest of Dragonsbridge with a crudely drawn map that a scout has drawn, and then the player will realize that they recognize the hill formation on the map and go there (fast travel to nearest discovered location if you want, the issue isn't fast traveling), then discover some forsworn trails, follow the trails, locate the camp and complete the quest. This way I take advantage of one of Skyrim's strongest features, the fantastic, handcrafted landscape.

Turn the HUD off in the menu, problem solved.

My only complaint was that a lot of quests were designed around back-tracking. Several times. I enjoy exploring but I don't want to go over the same ground repeatedly, and go through dozens of loading screens in close succession. Fast travel cuts the tedium out - some quests are assuming it will be used. The empty world with locations that are just fast travel markers (e.g. 'dry lake') assumes it will be used.

I agree.
Rather pointless, a topic such as this, when over half the posters have no clue what is being discussed and say silly things like: Turn the quest marker off.
In the end the best solution is to design a game without quest markers, and then later add them.
Not, as in Skyrim, to design a game where you are dependant on quest markers and give no directions whatsoever, and then allow us to turn the marker off for some reason.
Like you, I dont really feel the need to wait 200 posts to reach this conclusion, which has been reached many times before on threads like these.

I have said in many posts that they needed to make different role-playing modes to allow the player to immerse themselves into the world as much or as little as they wanted to. My Basic recomendation was as follows:

1. Standard Mode: The game as it is now
2. Adept Mode: Add requirements that the player eat, drink, and sleep in order to maintain Health/ Stamina/ Magica Levels
3. hardcoe Mode: All requiremnets of Adept Mode, plus remove the compass and fast travel from the map (Carriages are still ok to use).

I think ultimately this would make everyone happy.

Personally, I like the compass, but hate to pointers and the map (to some extent on the map) What I hate about the pointers is that when I am supposed to find something hidden in a building or dungeon, they put an arrow over it, I can go into a room and know that the object I am looking for is in that dresser, or in that chest. It limits exloration, and if I am supposed to be stealing said item, how much easier could they make it for me to get in and out.... makes getting caught very unlikely. Instead they should provde visual clues in the quest description or something as to what the correct room in the dungeon looks like.... for example the Dragon Stone... Farengar tells you it will be intured in the main chamber... do I need the arrow hovering over the dead body to find it.... I don't think so... and as far as finding Bleak Falls Barrow goes, Camilla walks you to the edge of Riverwood and tells you how to get there, even mentions a landmark, there is no reason why they can't have someone help you in each town to help guide you to loacations nearby.... maybe some of them you would have to pay... that would help take care of some of the extra gold people complain about as well.

My issue with the map is really the level of detail (or lack there of) I like the map in Oblivion.... more like what I would be carrying if I was an adventurer, so it owuld show the major roads and landmarks more in 2D then 3D.... I kind of don't mind that it shows where I am at and where I am going... especially if you take pointers, and nearby locations off the compass... I think it would make those features on the map needed a litle bit more, just incase you get turned around. I mean with a compass and a flat map you should be able to shoot bearings.. so either have the map just show you that automatically, or give us the abiltiy to shoot bearings somehow in the game... that is my 2 cents on the map anyway.

Sorry, I disagree. I don't understand what the big deal is. If you don't like it, don't use it. Now, I may not use it ALL the time, but I prefer to have a feature and choose whether to use it or not, than not to have it at all. Choice is always the better option.

The only way no markers would work is if people actually said where things are and you could, say, ask npc's for directions.

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I do the opposite, I have every quest highlisghted so there are so many markers on my compass, it's practically useless. I like to wander and If I happen across a quest giver, either to return or pick up said quests, it's all good. I don't let little things I have absolute control over bother me in the slightest, OP shouldn't either.

How do I find Ustengrav without using the quest marker or checking the map marker? Should I just start randomly walking all over Skyrim until I stumble upon it? No, then I would rather follow the quest arrow. However, I believe it would have been better if Arngeir told me to travel to Morthal, ask the innkeeper for directions to Ustengrav, follow the directions to find it and return with the item OR just check your quest and map marker. See how that is providing me with more of a choice than only having the quest marker to go by. Or if Arngeir gave me an old stone tablet with an old map of the region around Morthal and told me to consult it to find Ustengrav OR just follow my quest marker if I don't want to...

The deal is that I will be rewarded for exploring and learning to recognize and appreciate the hard work and detail that went into designing the unique regions and areas of Skyrim, from a design perspective that is utilizing one of the strengths of the game design to improve the players' experience, something I, as a designer would want to achieve.

I loved the title, implying that EVERYONE hated it when, in fact, there are some (like me) who actually don't have a problem with them.

Bars are only essential if playing a warrior, any other character is fine as you shouldn't be getting hit anyway. It's really fun playing without bars actually.

It′s fine to say that you don't have a problem with the compass map markers and quest arrows. It is fair to have a different opinion, but don't claim that those who do have a problem with it have the option of turning it off, because the game is not functional without them. Fast travel is optional, because you can get to where you want to go regardless of whether you use it or not, quest markers are not optional because you can't get to the locations you need to find without them.