Why Stormcloaks are Better than the Empire part 2 : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:30 am

Something people need to learn is the difference between "asset" and "informant/agent/ally". An asset is someone who serves your cause on certain terms.

That's not my definition of asset.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:49 pm

Question: could the Empire withdraw even if they wanted to? The AD seems to still have them by the balls and clearly want the Empire to stay in Skyrim.

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:51 am

Thalmor's ultimate goal is to destroy man. Whether they have to sit through and watch men divide and fight each other. In the end they'd win.

(Here's part of an explanation of AD waging war on Skyrim):
"The second one expands upon the Weynon stones. The guy figured out that the Thalmor are trying to erase mankind from existence, and the things that are stopping them are the eight towers:
Crystal Tower
Red Tower
Tree-sap
Orchalc
Khajiit
all of which were destroyed or deactivated. The most significant and only remaining one are the Brass Tower and Snow-Throat, or the Throat of the World. The Brass Tower was cast out of time. The tower may have a spiritual connection with Numidium, the brass god, and the disappearance of the tower and therefore Numidium may tie in with the disappearance of the Dwemer. Snow Throat is the only active one. Each of these towers have stones which bind them to Nirn, and the theorist concluded that the Weynon Stones bound Snow Throat. This is why the Thalmor have been waging war on Skyrim; so they can destroy Snow Throat or the Weynon Stones, either way destroying the last tower and wiping mankind from existence."

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:27 am

Question: could the Empire withdraw even if they wanted to? The AD seems to still have them by the balls and clearly want the Empire to stay in Skyrim.

I think not until every Nord Talos worshipper will be either dead or not a worshipper anymore.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:47 pm

That's not my definition of asset.

Frankly, your own definintion doesn't matter. Being an asset is, by its definintion, that you help someones cause based on criteria. If the criteria is no longer furfilled you are not an asset anymore.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:20 pm

Frankly, your own definintion doesn't matter. Being an asset is, by its definintion, that you help someones cause based on criteria. If the criteria is no longer furfilled you are not an asset anymore.

Informant/ally also meets that definiton.

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:56 am

Thalmor's ultimate goal is to destroy man. Whether they have to sit through and watch men divide and fight each other. In the end they'd win.

(Here's part of an explanation of AD waging war on Skyrim):
"The second one expands upon the Weynon stones. The guy figured out that the Thalmor are trying to erase mankind from existence, and the things that are stopping them are the eight towers:
Crystal Tower
Red Tower
Tree-sap
Orchalc
Khajiit
all of which were destroyed or deactivated. The most significant and only remaining one are the Brass Tower and Snow-Throat, or the Throat of the World. The Brass Tower was cast out of time. The tower may have a spiritual connection with Numidium, the brass god, and the disappearance of the tower and therefore Numidium may tie in with the disappearance of the Dwemer. Snow Throat is the only active one. Each of these towers have stones which bind them to Nirn, and the theorist concluded that the Weynon Stones bound Snow Throat. This is why the Thalmor have been waging war on Skyrim; so they can destroy Snow Throat or the Weynon Stones, either way destroying the last tower and wiping mankind from existence."

It's either that or they remove Talos from divinity, what about khajiit though? When has it deactivated?

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:51 pm

Informant/ally also meets that definiton.

Indeed, but he specificly mentioned asset so that is the one I adressed.

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:38 am

If you can get the empire and stormcloaks to agree to a cease fire for what's best for skyrim once. It can be done again. Death to the thalmor

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:30 pm

It's either that or they remove Talos from divinity,

Altmer believe they were originally godlike (unsure of the actual terminology) and believe destroying the towers will bring an end to the world and restore them. I think the whole Talos thing isn't related to their main goal.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:28 pm

Question: could the Empire withdraw even if they wanted to? The AD seems to still have them by the balls and clearly want the Empire to stay in Skyrim.

Probably not. The AD would either threaten or take action pressuring them to stay in Skyrim and force them to enforce the WGC.

They are thinly veiling a 2nd war. Claiming the WGC is only "the calm before the storm which I expect to be much worse than the first" -Ondolemar

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:35 pm

Probably not. The AD would either threaten or take action pressuring them to stay in Skyrim and force them to enforce the WGC.

They are thinly veiling a 2nd war. Claiming the WGC is only "the calm before the storm which I expect to be much worse than the first" -Ondolemar

Tamriels Cold war.

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:12 am

Altmer believe they were originally godlike (unsure of the actual terminology) and believe destroying the towers will bring an end to the world and restore them. I think the whole Talos thing isn't related to their main goal.

Talos is what holding Mundus together, originally it wa the heart of Lorkhan, however since it was destroyed, the strongest aspect of Lorkhan, which is Talos mantles Lorkhan, and thus takes the role of the heart of Lorkhan, at least to my understanding.

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:45 am

It's either that or they remove Talos from divinity, what about khajiit though? When has it deactivated?

Jagartharn knows what i'm talking about. You'd have to read the thread to know what I'm talking about, its all hypothetical but plausible. www.reddit.com/r/skyrim/comments/nklj2/you_know_those_runes_on_the_lids_of_the_bug_jars/?sort=top

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:46 am

Tamriels Cold war.

Pretty much sums it up.

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:20 am

The Thalmors goal is too destroy the world and ascend to a higher plane of exsistence. In order to prevent that Alinor must be taken eventually.

No it doesn't. Allied powers did not conquer Germany to end WWII. Nazi surrender was accepted. England and France wanted to push all the way through, but US wouldn't go with it. It wasn't until later that Germany was divided up among the major powers and that wasn't an issue of Germany but an issue of US/Eng/France having different goals than Russia.

As far as I know, hasn't it always been a big deal Summerset Isle is a xenophobic Altmer only state? I may be mistaken. There may be men there, but not actual Empire territory to foot an invasion from.

I meant to type, men AREN'T there. In other words. Alinor could be a bunch of hippies running around in skimpy clothes living in tee pees. No one knows.

In the long term the liberation of Skyrim is a priority, but in the short term I think that it is in every mans (and some Mers) best interests that the best Nordic armies are at the front trying to take Valenwood or break off the offensive on Hammerfell. It is easier to drive an occupying army back with a united force rather than various states concentrating on defence.

A Nord army can do neither of those two things if they are being shackled by the Empire. Hammerfell can act on its own accord because it is NOT a member of the Empire. You really think the AD will just let the Nords go run amok and NOT pull the Imperials into it? That's not rational. The only way for the Empire to avoid AD retribution is to forget Skyrim and let the Nords do what they do. Or they can call off the civil war and attack the AD. Which by default again, Skyrim is independent. Neither of your best interest scenarios can be achieved without first removing Skyrim from Imperial something. Can't call it Imperial control, because they don't have control.

Also, Alinor is a country. It is more than capable of supporting itself (and more importantly it's navy). It isn't communist, therefore there isn't the hit to productivity that the Soviets suffered from. Not to mention that the economy in Tamriel is different.

USSR was a country too, what's the point? This has nothing do with communists. Or capitalism for that matter, the Afghanis are doing the exact same thing to US right now. Its the fact that one of the 2 major military powers in the world, was defeated, bankrupted and shattered by simply funding/training/equipping tribal war bands in a remote region. We used the Mujahideen as a tool, and crippled the only rivaling power, without losing a single American life. That's the point.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:45 pm

Jagartharn knows what i'm talking about. You'd have to read the thread to know what I'm talking about, its all hypothetical but plausible. www.reddit.com/r/skyrim/comments/nklj2/you_know_those_runes_on_the_lids_of_the_bug_jars/?sort=top

I know what you're talking about, however I also heard another theory that by removing Talos from the seat of Divinity it would destroy reality the reason why I have stated above.

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:21 am

They don't need to invade Skyrim they can just sit inside Summerset Isle and play political game pitting empire against kyrim while they regaining strenght even further.

Soooo....Nords stay in Skyrim. AD stays in Summerset. And without AD intrusion the Empire has no reason to be oppressing Nords....this is sorta, the state of things before the AD started the Great War. Ie. No one is fighting. Ie. There is no conflict, no one is dying, there is no game to play and the world of Tamriel is all hunky dorey.

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:51 am

Soooo....Nords stay in Skyrim. AD stays in Summerset. And without AD intrusion the Empire has no reason to be oppressing Nords....this is sorta, the state of things before the AD started the Great War. Ie. No one is fighting. Ie. There is no conflict, no one is dying, there is no game to play and the world of Tamriel is all hunky dorey.

Not quite how about if they managed to pit Empire or Hammerfell or other againstSkyrim and once it's weakened, they strike?

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:58 pm

Basically if it wasn't for the AD and their GW/WGC there'd be no division, no war, no radicals, and no problems. Get rid of the oppressors (Thalmor) and radicals everything will probably be just fine.

I know what you're talking about, however I also heard another theory that by removing Talos from the seat of Divinity it would destroy reality the reason why I have stated above.

I never heard that theory.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:50 pm

Not quite how about if they managed to pit Empire or Hammerfell or other againstSkyrim and once it's weakened, they strike?

At this point I think the Thalmor will have greater trouble pitting people against one another, simply because the world have seen the destruction they sow. Hammerfell, the Empire and Skyrim(if it becomes independent) will al be focused on preparing to face the Dominion once more. Morrowind was practically destroyed and have yet to recover properly and Black Marsh doesn't seemt to care about anything outside its borders at all. And who knows what is going on in High Rock? The bretons and their petty squabbles haven't changed if the comment fromHadvar if you are a Breton is any sourse(something about a court intrigue in Daggerfall).

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:50 pm

That depends on whether they are concentrating their force or not. There is no reason for them to risk a larger presence that would make many Imperial supporters side with the Stormcloaks. The Empire is a much friendlier face for the Thalmor to use as their occupation.

Thanks, that sort of sums up the entire point I was making of why the Empire is useless to the Nords, and why they are no different than the Thalmor. Glad we can agree on that now.

As for the whole concentrating the forces thing, that's you know, sort of the point on forcing them to fight multiple fronts. Preventing a concentrated assault. Come on man....
And again, not even history's most efficient military industrial complex was able to do that. And they had tanks, lots of them.

» Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:11 am

Basically if it wasn't for the AD and their GW/WGC there'd be no division, no war, no radicals, and no problems. Get rid of the oppressors (Thalmor) and radicals everything will probably be just fine.

I never heard that theory.

I have asked this on lore forum that when Talos is removed the reality will be unmake, but maybe I misunderstand it, I don't know.

Anyway about the tower when did Khajiit deactivated?

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:32 pm

No it doesn't. Allied powers did not conquer Germany to end WWII. Nazi surrender was accepted. England and France wanted to push all the way through, but US wouldn't go with it. It wasn't until later that Germany was divided up among the major powers and that wasn't an issue of Germany but an issue of US/Eng/France having different goals than Russia.

Their goal is too theoretically destroy the world, I doubt they will be concerned with being invaded. The leading Thalmor will actually have to be killed to end the doctrine, a better example than WW2 would be the war in Afghanistan for a couple of reasons.

I meant to type, men AREN'T there. In other words. Alinor could be a bunch of hippies running around in skimpy clothes living in tee pees. No one knows.

True, but they did manage to conquer the empire which is evidence to assume they know what they are doing. And their navy has been mentioned a few times in lore iirc.

A Nord army can do neither of those two things if they are being shackled by the Empire. Hammerfell can act on its own accord because it is NOT a member of the Empire. You really think the AD will just let the Nords go run amok and NOT pull the Imperials into it? That's not rational. The only way for the Empire to avoid AD retribution is to forget Skyrim and let the Nords do what they do. Or they can call off the civil war and attack the AD. Which by default again, Skyrim is independent. Neither of your best interest scenarios can be achieved without first removing Skyrim from Imperial something. Can't call it Imperial control, because they don't have control.

I was talking about if the Imperials re-declare war. In which case being able to field an army is more important than seperate provinces being able to defend themselves, it doesn't neccesarily have to be the current empire, but some form of control needs to be given to someone if the Altmer are going to be driven from the mainland.

If they redeclare war with both Hammerfell and Skyrim concentrating on defence they won't have as good a chance as they would with Skyrim supporting them.

USSR was a country too, what's the point? This has nothing do with communists. Or capitalism for that matter, the Afghanis are doing the exact same thing to US right now. Its the fact that one of the 2 major military powers in the world, was defeated, bankrupted and shattered by simply funding/training/equipping tribal war bands in a remote region. We used the Mujahideen as a tool, and crippled the only rivaling power, without losing a single American life. That's the point.

The Altmer don't have an army anywhere where there is a large mujahadeen parallel. And honestly, the same thing didn't happen to the Americans in Vietnam, a flawed economic policy (communism) was a factor. They never had a strong economy before the Cold War which contributed to the mujahadeen being succesful.

» Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:23 pm

At this point I think the Thalmor will have greater trouble pitting people against one another, simply because the world have seen the destruction they sow. Hammerfell, the Empire and Skyrim(if it becomes independent) will al be focused on preparing to face the Dominion once more. Morrowind was practically destroyed and have yet to recover properly and Black Marsh doesn't seemt to care about anything outside its borders at all.

They managed to fool the khajiit, who knows? If there are other event that will happen that they can use.