I think it's a way to demoralize the Nords.

To see TES lore as only from in-game sources is to woefully limit yourself in its scope.
TES lore simply is greater than that.
This post was made before Skyrim even was published, not by a forumer, but by MK.
The wrong sort of question is: 'is this canon?', because TES simply does not work like that. The right sort of question is: 'Is this lore' and the answer is a resounding yes.
Regardless, what points towards this post being 'canon' is just about everything we see and read about the Thalmor in Skyrim, including the Thalmor at the Winterhold College who at some point exclaims: I have the power to uncreate the world!

MK wasn't involved in Skyrim's development, the Thalmor also aren't mentioned in the article at all so aside from wanting to wipe out the worship of Talos there is no connection.

But if it was written before Skyrim why should we believe it has anything to do with the Thalmor.

Oh every megomaniac might say that when given access to ultimate power. That doesn't mean he intended to do it. Nothing I've read in skyrim speaks of the Thalmor wanting to unmake the world just enslave it.

MK still does work for Bethesda. His posts on the lore forum are never moved to fanfic, Bethesda does not consider them fanfic.
Part of the speech the preacher in Whiterun gives about Talos is from 'the Many-Headed Talos', a work by MK written after he was 'no longer a dev.' Everything Paarthunax says reeks of MK.

For everyone that read the post I quoted after the Infernal City book was published its blindingly obvious the Aldmeri Dominion ruled by the Thalmor are what is meant, this is a put-down without base. That it is written beforehand lends it validity, it does not discredit it. It shows a pre-conceived idea instead of an explanation in hindsight.

And sorry, but duh. If you have a secret agenda to destroy the world, would you tell everyone and their dog? This isnt a James Bond movie.

Lastly, if you had followed the overarching ideas in the TES lore youd know the merish worldview of the Mundus as a prison that must be escaped. Again, the Dwemer tried to do the exact same thing, albeit via very different means. It fits. I call 'boring and therefore wrong' on the just enslaving the world spiel, when compared to the grandiose scope of interconnected lore that dictates the Thalmor are trying to uncoil the Dragon.

Very well said, couldnt have said it better myself

Actually no he doesn't, he still writes lore books most of which was done in Oblvion(by then he was no longer offically working for Bethesda). And just because he writes it doesn't mean bethesda will accept it as the offical lore. They can pick and choose what to use and what to discard.

I will not base the Thalmor view on an article not included in the game, that may not have even been written by a member of the Thalmor.

It is accepted as official lore from the sheer fact his posts are never moved to the fanfic forum, but remain on the lore forum.
That he still does work for Bethesda is evident by the post-Oblivion work of his that appears in Skyrim.

You can dislike MK's work and that is fine, but you do not have the authority to declare it non-lore when Bethesda has shown they think otherwise.

Once again, to limit yourself on in-game info only when it comes to TES lore is to miss out on the best bits.
TES lore simply does not work that way, it is grander than mere games.

Would you consider http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-and-its-environs-third-edition lore?
It hasnt appeared in any game you know, rather, it is what the game is based on.
How about http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Books:The_Infernal_City?
It hasnt appeared in any game but sets the stage for Skyrim and introduces the new Aldmeri Dominion.

Untill you can provide something more interesting than 'it hasnt appeared in any game' I simply call boring, and therefore wrong.

Accept he doesn't still work for them he left the company during Morrowind's development and was later asked by bethesda to write some of the in-game books for Oblivion.

You have no authority to assume that everything he writes is gold and accepted by Bethesda. Lore doesn't have to be true to be accepted as Lore thats one of the things about the Elderscrolls your told what people in the game believe and quite often its not actually true. Thus its fine to leave his posts in the lore section, it can be offically excluded by simply not including it. If they carefully picked his posts it could be spoiling for what is true and what isn't.

Point to the article and where it mentions the Thalmor. The simple fact is they aren't mentioned you are attributing it to them.

They must write a lot of "elf help" books...

Read Wendy and Richard Pini's "Elfquest" comics for the flip side

Im actually tempted to facepalm.
How much fun is it to castrate TES lore like that?

I have shown you proof that MK's work still appears in TES games and it is time now for you to quit this senseless vendetta against MK.
I have shown you TES lore is not merely what is in the game.
You have every right not to like his writings, you have no right to overrule Bethesda when it comes to declaring his works are not lore.

Point to the article where it says 'Thalmor'?
What, are you twelve?
No. Im not going to do that. Im not going to point at a table and say it isnt a table because the word table isnt written on there.
Im not even going to continue this monologe. Its not a debate. For a debate one needs the other side to actually engage in the conversation rather than just rehash tired old non-sequitors and rigid unthinkingness.
Im done with this and would rather reply to people that actually get what wonderful depth TES lore entails instead of trying to turn it into a generic borefest.

That doesn't mean he still works for Bethesda or that everything he writes is automatically taken as lore or true. I'm not overruling Bethesda. I simply question your assertion that you know what Bethesda considers the actual lore or not. Just because Bethesda takes some of his work and puts it in-game doesn't mean everything he writes is should be taken as true. You shouldn't even take the lore you find in-game as true to easily given like real history books you have contradicting perspectives and ideas. Bethesda is not going to monitor the forums and pick and choose what of MK's posts to keep in the lore section and what to move, as that would be locking themselves in or giving away spoilers. The post was made years ago Bethesda might not even have remembered it existed when they were writing Skyrim.

The same way that I dont have to see the sun to know its causing the daylight.


Nerevar said, 'I am afraid to become slipshod in my thinking.'
Vivec said, 'Reach heaven by violence then.'
So to quiet his mind the Hortator chose from the Fight Racks an axe. He named it and moved on to the first moon.
There, Nerevar was greeted by the Parliament of Craters, who knew him by title and resented his presence, for he was to be a ruling king of earth and this was the lunar realm. They shifted around him in a pattern of entrapment. 'The moon does not recognize crowns or scepters,' they said, 'nor the representatives of kingdoms below, lion or serpent or mathematician. We are the graves of those that have migrated and become ancient countries. We seek no Queens or thrones. Your appearance is decidedly solar, which is to say a library of stolen ideas. We are neither tear nor sorrow. Our revolution succeeded in the manner that is was written. You are the Hortator and unwelcome here.'
And so Nerevar carved at the grave ghosts until he was out of breath and their Parliament could make no new laws.
He said, 'I am not of the slaves that perish.'

(I told you I was done with the debate)

You don't debate Merari you simply take forum posts from former employees and assume everything he writes must be true. (unlke the in-game lore which often contradicts its self)

A big deal is made out of the religion of the nine divines but according to some lore the original eight divines religion was a compromise by Alessia merging the Nordic and Elven pantheons at the end of the first era. What happened to those missing Elven and Nordic gods? Despite the years the Amulet of Kings remained lost in the second era and all the times the throne sat empty the issue with the Oblivion crisis didn't occur until Uriel Septims death.

The in-game lore is already contradictory, bias and full of holes. Just like real history books. So I have trouble assigned an article to the Thalmor when it was written before Skyrim as made but not included in the game. I don't trust the lore in-game at face value, I certainly won't give what was left out a higher level of trust.

Where is my daily Stormcloaks vs. Imperials thread!?

MK may not work anymore full time for Bethesda but he may still be an external collaborator. He IS a storywriter after all.

Like with Earth history, what is most likely closest to the truth can be teased out by putting slightly differing versions of events next to each other and see where they coincide.

These elven and Nordic gods are not missing, youre thinking about it the wrong way.
Imagine a huge circular dark room with a lit shape on a pedestal in the centre. You are at the rim of this room. From where you stand you see the shape and it looks like a triangle. You move across the rim to stand somewhere else in the room and look at the shape, it looks like a square now.
You move towards the centre of the room and see the shape up close for the first time. It is not a triangle nor a square, but a shape that looks like either when viewed from a specific angle.

These are the gods.

Those old gods still exist, they are just seen in a different shape now. They are the same concepts, the same Aedra, but different aspects of them are now at the forefront.
This process is called mythopoesis where belief shapes reality.

What the Selectives achieved when they danced on that Tower, aside from the middle-dawn, was the creation of Akatosh, who before had not existed, as such. After the middle-dawn he always had.
This does not mean that Auri-El suddenly is no more, for the merish races he is still the most important ancestor.
They are standing at another point on the rim of this circular room.


Six are the formulas to heaven by violence, one that you have learned by studying these words.
The Father is a machine and the mouth of a machine. His only mystery is an invitation to elaborate further.
The Mother is active and clawed like a nix-hound, yet she is the holiest of those that reclaim their days.
The Son is myself, Vehk, and I am unto three, six, nine, and the rest that come after, glorious and sympathetic, without borders, utmost in the perfections of this world and the others, sword and symbol, pale like gold.
There is a fourth kind of philosophy that uses nothing but disbelief.
For by the sword I mean the sensible.
For by the word I mean the dead.
I am Vehk, your protector and the protector of Red Mountain until the end of days, which are numbered 3333.
Below me is the savage, which we needed to remove ourselves from the Altmer.
Above me is a challenge, which bathes itself in fire and the essence of a god.
Through me you are desired, unlike the prophets that have borne your name before.
Six are the walking ways, from enigma to enemy to teacher.
Boethiah and Azura are the principles of the universal plot, which is begetting, which is creation, and Mephala makes of it an art form.
For by the sword I mean the first night.
For by the word I mean the dead.

I feel like people say "Another thread about this?" just to get attention. Which is pretty pathetic considering it's the internet. It's the forum, I joined it, I'm allowed to post whatever questions I desire. I tried the search function, nothing came out and it's too confusing.

What's worse is that, when did this thread come up before? This isn't the "STORMCLOAK VS IMPERIALS" thread. This is about the Thalmor and their belief in Talos. To ever said "This thread again", you waste more of your time clicking on this thread, then having teh courage to type it. IF you see a thread you don't like, simply move on, you don't have to whine about seeing 1 thread when there are thousands of others.

A little known fact this is, but Talos worked at a McDonalds during his youth. He hated the job so he spat on every burger. Coincidentally was the McDolands he worked at also the favourite restaurant of most of the high elves, who took their kids there.

Yes, I think you are right. The whole Talos issue seems to be mostly political. Tiber Septim symbolised the human empire and human domination and conquest of the other races. So to destroy the Empire, the High Elves will destroy its mythos. This also creates internal conflicts among the humans which further helps the elves.

There are also some Altmer who are religious zealots and these becomes useful tools of the Aldmeri politicians who can send them off to the Empire as enforcers creating even more discord.

This explaination seems most reasonable.

That and the fact that the Thalmor are jerks

Everything political about it is a side effect, a rather useful one but a side effect all the same. The primary goal of the Altmer is to remove worship in Talos. To explain it simply with only in game sources

Talos http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arcturian-heresy-0 Lorkhan/Shor the god of man and the one who started http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-monomyth. As we can see with the creation of Akatosh who did not exist before Alessia, belief shapes gods. Remove believe from Talos, is to remove Talos which is essence is to weaken men all across the world. There can only be one real reason to wish and destroy Talos however, if you know the consequences of such things. If Talos/Shor/Lorkhan is no longer worshipped then the binding power they have on the world is gone and that leaves the Altmer free to return to a previous state.

Jumping in on the argument of whether or not MK text is canon:

The question isn't even relevant, if you look at it in a simpler form.

-> Altmer want to return to a pre-dawn state they have always wanted to do that.
-> Kalpas (canon cause Paarth) are always just the same thing over and over again (with minor differences)
-> If men are still around and a possibility then nothing will stop the next Kalpa from being the same as this one, thus forcing the Altmer into yet another cycle of creation.

In order for them to win, man must be made, impossible. Talos must be made impossible, Lorkhan must be made impossible.

Talos was made a "god" by sort of re-enacting creation. In doing so, he sort of reinforced the mortal realm. The Thalmor are religious zealots whose ultimate goal is to unmake creation and free their elven spirits which were trapped when the mundus was created. The first step in that very long term goal would be to weaken and remove talos from the pantheon of gods.

Your posts have been very interesting, thank you.

Me personally i believe it's because talos is a source of hope for the nords. If talos is openly worshipped then it could eventually make the nords fight back and that would obviously not be good for the thalmor

Given their readiness to persecute dissidents at home, I'm not sure whether the Thalmor are so much racist as simply power hungry.