This is part a response to a post from the attributes thread, but I think a separate enough topic that it's not inappropriate to make a new thread for it.

The post -

Combat amounts for a majority of the game play, and one of the only aspects of it that they made engaging enough to build a character for.

That motto doesn't mean a lot when playing a merchant, a thief, a smith, a diplomat or whatever is incredibly boring game play and often feels like a pointless time killing exercise. Some don't even cut it as side content. Most of the time, getting anything meaningful done in the game involves combat, especially major quests.

The problem I see with this motto is that it's just a bad idea for any game you have a limited amount of time to make. You just can't flesh out that many different approaches to the game enough to make them all interesting. I'd much rather they focus on a few methods that are better integrated into quest content particularly, and the game world in general.

Ye...ummm...okay.

I have two completely different explorer type characters that haven't killed a thing...as well as a couple of killing machines.

So...whatever.

I'm not saying that what you are saying is wrong but I have character that is aa pure blacksmith and has no combat skills but I paid for a guard and with my smithing skills have made him a beast. I pretty much use him to guard me while I search various ruins in search for all of the mineable ore in skyrim.

Just because you want to play one way doesn't mean everybody wants to play that way. If Beth only catered to one play type then they'd lose what makes TES. TES.

Exactly !
However they made some Nord exaggerating...

If Bethesda did allow you to play as a merchant, thief, smith, or diplomat, someone would pipe up: 'why can't I be a farmer?' 'why can't I be a priest?' 'why can't I be a warlord?' etc. They're not going to be able to satisfy everyone, but in putting the emphasis on combat - the thing most people, like it or not, are most interested in - they've satisfied as many people as possible.

Be who you want, do what you want works for me. That's what brought me to the Capital Wasteland, then to the Mojave Wasteland, and finally to Skyrim.

go be a normal person and see how many caves and adventures you go in..... then think a life as a black smith is not really "high speed"

This has been true for at least Oblivion and Morrowind, and maybe in previous games, at least as far as the main quest is concerned. Honestly, it feels like quests for social-oriented characters have seriously taken a nose-dive. In Skyrim it feels like I can barely even MAKE a social character just because they jammed the only two social skills into one. As for thieves though, as with mages or warriors, the guild offers a TON of radiant quests that cater to your character's specialty. It would be nice to see more alternative solutions for main quests (personally I though "season unending" was a step in the right direction), but in all likelihood you're still gonna have to bash your way to the salvation of Tamriel in future games.

I think the problem isn't that there isn't a hundred ways to compleat quest but that there is only one way to complete them and that is a sword our spell to the face. If there were passive ways through speech or sneak skills to get through quest it would help with rping hundreds of play styles.

Seconded.

This is the state of the game already though, and seems to be more in agreement with my post than it conflicts with it.

I'm not saying we need to be able to play all the roles I listed, I'm just saying fewer is better if more means less quality. If fewer means only combat, I can deal with that - though I don't think it's what most players want from TES. The slippery slope argument I don't think is a good one though. It's true they can't satisfy everyone, and it's true there will always be those players asking for things that seem trivial, pointless, boring, etc. to most other players. That doesn't mean they're in any way obligated to listen to those players or implement those things, they're not really obligated to listen to any player.

I also know some players still do many of those things I listed with their characters, but that doesn't mean they're well implemented. They're very shallow and are for the most part not integrated into the quest content of the game. You can do them, but there's not much to doing them.

I think an important question before implementing any role or activity in an RPG is "can we make this interesting to play?". The answer is no for many of the activities in Skyrim - crafting(Smithing in particular) being the perfect example as it's for the most part a tedious grind that feels tacked on. I'm not saying crafting is impossible to make interesting in future games, but there has to be some prioritizing.

Probably worth noting, it's perfectly fine to make something that's meant to be a supplement to a role rather than a role itself. Problem in Skyrim is, they didn't treat the perk tree as if this were the case. There are about as many perks you have to take in borderline useless junk for what are effectively minor skills as there are for main combat skills.

Bethesda should focuse on making atleast the core "roles" finished. What is the point to add variations of core classes when even the basic stuff won't work right. Stamina is next to useless, AI is a dumass and magic is gimped.

random poster: "Nope it's more important to have divorce and adopting ingame. I just can't stand Ysolda anymore."

Pff...the motto is how the series began...in 1994.

I suppose theyre still clinging to it AND the belief that they havent abandoned it out of some deep down feeling of remorse.

its tes dude... be who you want and do what you want means that your character in the roleplaying experience of the game is not pre-scripted. it doesnt mean that the story they set forth isnt a combat oriented role. it just means you have the freedom to build and develop that character as you see fit/ you dont have to do any particular quest.

be who you want: make your charachter
do what you want: we dont force you to do any quests

it does fit


/thread

Half of the fighting situations I've been in during Fallout New Vegas, I talked my way out of. Speech skill really should be able to do more than to get better sale offers, and a few persuading things here and there.

I can only envy people who have enough spare time to watch an animation looping in Skyrim while talking to themselves in their head.

Read the red word in my signature.

Not that FONV isn't better in this department than Skyrim, but I doubt half isn't an exaggeration here, unless you're not counting enemies unrelated to quests like most wild life.

You find side content pointless and boring. I find combat pointless and boring. Who is right?

There is no 'right' or 'wrong', that's kind of the point. You really enjoy killing and conquering, and that's awesome. I don't- I find combat to be something I have to do in order to progress my story. That's me.

Be who you want, do what you want. Works for me.

If you have enough time to play the game and post in the forums, you have enough time to roleplay.

After replaying FO:NV recently I have noticed that the passive skills are way more useful than in Skyrim.

Seconded.

I highly doubt when they said be who you want do what you want meant "We totally have mechanics that support your imaginate abilities" I'm pretty sure it just means that there is more freedom to array your character as compared to lets say Final fantasy, or Gothic.

Entirely missing the point, the problem is not that I just don't like anything in combat in games. I'm fond of many games that did some of those other things well. PS:T had great speech options that actually mattered, stealing in Thief actually mattered(you'd hope so!), KoTOR had a solid crafting system actually as well as great speech options. And so on. The problem I'm trying to point out here is that Skyrim is stretched too thin and doesn't do anything particularly well - combat is more fleshed out than anything else but even it has very serious problems.