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Nevermind. There's little point trying to explain. Haters will hate regardless.

I get off at 50...

Yeah, i will always hate being able to max out all skills in a game that calls itself an "RPG". Even DA2 doesn't allow that :bolt:

Okay.

Intelligence 6. No Educated perk. No skill books. Equals 637 skill points (49 levels * 13 points per). Divided evenly amongst 13 skills, you get 49 points to each skill.

That doesn't even max your Tag! skills (with an even distribution of points). Even with Educated, you wouldn't max with an even distribution.

But the haters will complain because they'll take Educated and Comprehension and read every skill book just so they can [censored] that they have 100 in every skill.

Once again, people are overreacting without thinking it through. And if you can't exercise the discipline it takes to avoid taking two perks and reading skill books, that's not a design issue, that's your issue.

All i know is i'm already putting points on skills i don't use and taking useless perks on level 30. With a character of INT 4. "Maxing out all skills" was a hyperbole, true, but i still feel the game gives way too much skillpoints.

Educated incrases skillpoint gain further so i obviously never take it, Comprehension only on one character because it fits the personality (and i never actually use any skillbooks, it's only for the early game magazine bonuses). And the highes INT i use is 7, again for RP purposes.

As i've said before, i want my characters to specialize, not generalize, and with excessive skillpoints and perks that will happen :shrug:

It's funny that within the DLC's they keep trying to somewhat meet consumer demands but they pretty much do it wrong. (like raising levels for each DLC but having enough xp in each dlc to max your character.. thus doing absolutely nothing to extend leveling in the vanilla game.) I have a feeling that if they'd just left all the character building elements alone.. left it exactly the same as the original fallouts. Level progression, xp amount for level progression, perks, traits.. all that stuff. There would have been no complaints. Always felt that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the old level system.

Apparently you didn't hear about new trait that caps the level at 30.. Perfect for people who want limit to how they play. I however do not. I enjoy being an over powered badass, running through the wasteland with 5 different types of weapons and being proficient with all of them. My only regret is that they don't seem to mention adding a trait that allows you to pick a perk every level. I know this would annoy people like you who play the game for challenge and multiple play throughs. But there is no way I could get past 100 hours into the game with out it glitching or corrupting or black black screening every five seconds. Multiple play throughs should mean you get to finish the game before restarting. Not be forced to restart by bugs.

I understand people like yours opinions but personally I preferred fallout 3 and it's leveling system/ open world limitlessness to fallout 2/1/tactics/bos. I don't feel they should punish people who want that challenge and archtype to their characters however I wish they would consider people like myself with an (OPTIONAL) trait to get a perk every level, I love being over powered. I hate the current leveling system and if I were playing on PC my level cap would be 100, and I'd have high skills level going up to a thousand and a perk every level. I enjoy building my character up to a pesudo God. Not being confined in an attempt to make an unrealistic game realistic by making me weak or limited. Not to say hardcoe mode's slight inconveniences are not fun because I enjoy that level of challenge. But I want still want a perfect character, they're catering to people who want to be capped at level thirty with their new trait in owb soooo..

Don't you think it is slightly ridiculous that your character have all skill above 60 (to 70 depend on SPECIAL) with three more above 80 before books and any skill point perk?

Not to mention Intelligence impact on skill points are low, you barely lose 7~8 skill points per skill with Intelligence 1.

Even with discipline your character will be good at most things and thus lose some traits as a character.

We're more complaining about the fact that it's even possible to get 100 in all skills in the first place.

In order for SP allotment to be balanced it should not be possible to cap more than about half the skills no matter what one does, since said allotment cannot be skipped during the level-up process. As things are now, even with a 6 INT you're still going to cap a lot more skills than your character will have any use for.

Assuming a starting average of 18 per skill, you'd need 82 per skill to cap
With a 6 INT you get 637 SP to allot
82*7=574; 637-574=63

That's 7 skills capped and an 8th at 81. That does not include implants, skill books, or perks; if those are included you're adding up to another 367-431 SP, depending on when and/or if you took the INT implant. That's enough to cap out at L50 with 2 points left over if you took Educated at L4 ((82*5)+19=429). With a starting INT of 10 one can cap out as early as L42. That's not including AGI or PER glitching with the Vending Machine, use of that allows a 10INT character to cap out by L35-36.

Like ToJKa, I end up putting points into skills I will never use on that character even with a mid-range INT stat; my latest character is dumping points into EW at L28, and he'll never fire one as he's a Guns/Explosives Infantry type. That shouldn't be happening with a 'proper' SP allotment system, by the time I've maxed 6-7 skills and am dumping off points I should be at least 16 levels higher than that.

If completely capping out is to remain possible, then it should take 10INT, L50, all skill books+Comprehension, Tag!, Educated, and Implants, and even then hitting L50 should barely be sufficient for the task. As things are now the only challenge in capping out is at what level you can pull it off, and that shouldn't even be a consideration.

THAT'S what we're complaining about.

Actually, the game is design for Lv30, Lv50 simply shouldn't be there.

Yeah, I guess that is true with the perks being non existant beyond 30. Maybe a lvl 50 cap was just there to appease power gamers.

Hopefully that lvl30 trait doesn't take away from the 2 perk max

I know, but since 50 will be the final cap that's what I was going with.

Well, see, one of the "trend' with DLC is that it lower the games difficultly (or makes player more powerful), so I guess we should have known 30 isn't final.

However, 5 levels per DLC is too much. It should have be 5 for having one of four and maybe 5 more for having all. Or better yet you get a Perk after finish each DLC's main quest and may be a chance to swap one old perk with new ones.

The game was already broken at level 30 because Beth designed a really bad skill system in FO3 that Obsidian due to time (14 months development) ported that same system in with oh 5 less skill points per level thinking that will solve the problem. It didn't and with level 50 you will max at some point, I guess there is one good thing about this I won't need to take Educated or Comprehension anymore. They really do need to change this system in FO4 either go back to the original system from FO1/2 and tweak it or do something completely different like an TES approach to the skills, although then by doing that your going to need to overhual the game system.

I do not think it's ridiculous. Not at level 50. You really need to hunt quests and XP to make Level 50. And if you do such a thing, you should expect to become a master in your Tag skills and at least average if not better in everything else. There is still differentiation when you have three skills at 100 and ten skills at ~65. Are you awesome? Yes, you are but there is still some specialization there. Really, the differentiation is only gone when everything is up in the 90s or maxed at 100. Yes, the many perks you end up picking will certainly make your character even more powerful and I'm sure at some point they become irrelevant for certain character types, but seriously, if you pursue level 50, you should expect to be very powerful.

The thing about this is, if you have a very specialized character concept, then there is no chance that every quest in the game is pertinent to that concept and you shouldn't be chasing that quest... because then you're just chasing XP (and, hey, that's on you). If you try to do all the quests and DLC with a single character, then you are trying to do *everything* and you should expect to be good at *everything*. The discipline does not stop at ignoring skill books and Educated, it extends to what you choose to do in the game.

Your character can retain specialization even at level 30. But you need discipline. And as I've already said, if you don't have that discipline, that's on *you*.

You don't know what specialization means do you? Having Skill above 50 means the character is pretty 'decent' at given skill; where is specialization when every single one of your character is decent at everything?

Problem isn't about not getting specialization at level 30 which the game is designed for, but rather throwing another 20 or so levels to shave it down, and why should people who like the vanilla game design be "punish" for spending a trait?

You certainly doesn't need to do every quest to get above level 30. Not to mention why should our characters be lock out of quest? Isn't role playing suppose to all play approach the same problem with different solution? Ain't role playing suppose to bring give character out of their comfort zone once in a while to see how they react?

Here's what I did. Downloaded XP mod that makes every level take 30% more experiance, got harder hardcoe mod, and bartertown mod which makes the barter skill more usefull by making buy/selling only give you a pittance. Makes the game longer and harder. In addition I only use light armor (gecko backed reinforced leather armor) which makes me easier to kill. Game is still challenging and I'm nearing level 25, normally on my other sniper build character, at level 20 I am a God one shotting enemies with no challenge. There are ways to make gettting to 30 or 40 or 50 much more entertaining. Mods FTW! :tops:

Oh and I never take Tag! Or use skill books that do not pertain to my characters area of interests. He is a survivalist and is very self sufficient. He only has 2 level 100 skills at 24 (Guns and Survival) is good at repairs and bartering...other then that I have Lockpick at 50 and plan on putting no more in that, nothing put into science as I only have average intelligence (5). Etc etc, you get the jist of this.

I just use Arwen's Realism Tweaks with increased Wasteland Spawns and Project Nevada. You actually need to pay attention to SPECIAL, skills, and perks not to mention use the Stealth Field, implants and chems to survive. and of course since chems have weight and weight limit is significantly reduced you can't be a walking pharmacy anymore either.

Now that's hardcoe without massive sarcasm quotes :hehe:

How is project Nevada? I' skeptical on using it.

It comes in four parts, the core adds and cyberware add some nice new features such as special vision modes (night, infrared and EM), stealth field on certain armors (limited and consumes energy cells) visor overlays, visual effect for low health etc. The rebalance part i find a bit lacking (thus Arwen's), but it increases hardcoe rates and reduces player and NPC health, XP gain and skillpoints, all adjustable. The equipment module has some nice new weapons and armor. Their goal was that the new equipment fits the game, both quality and lore wise, so it's a very nice coellction of equipment with plenty of classic Fallout weapons.

Here's the official thread: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1197547-relz-project-nevada-20/

This. Even with the trait it would have been nice to level up much slower and have less skill points to put into your skills.

I think people are forgetting that it would take you a really long time to get to level 50.

No it doesnt. You can level up quite fast. You might even level up doing one quest.