Ouch till june is lot of time ....

Do it yourself then.

Unbelievable.

Yeah. I'm not a professional programmer, and if I was I wouldn't be getting paid for this. Comments like that make me want to not even attempt it.

Wow. Do it yourself.

I hope you can look at PROMETHEUS_ts's post in a positive light. He is producing a great looking mod but is currently stuck because of this issue. So his frustration is understandable. He was not directing his frustration towards you or anyone. I think he feels that his mod is near release, if only he could just resolve this issue. That you can look into this (in june) and help him is great. That's how I interpreted his post.

I tend to see how the blame is pulled to something unrelated and this thread is no different.

So we don't have big mods because Beth doesn't promote them, not because they are much harder to do and have much higher rate of failing?
And blaming bugs also seem to be the most easy thing to do. Like the navmesh bug, that is a bug that's been apparent since Morrowind, right? Correct me if I'm wrong but there were multiple big mods, and new landscape mods for both Morrowind and Oblivion, not to mention Fallout and New Vegas whose CS still had the exact same bug, yet the mods still exist.

I don't think the problem is with the kit, and panicking because they just remain quite for a couple of weeks probably because they're busy working for E3, the DLC or even the very patch we are waiting here.

Yes, it is worth making big mods, but you actually need the drive and ability to actually finish what you've started.

This...


I think you are wrong , the navmesh bug is present since fallout not Morrowind or Oblivion ... Unless "I" am wrong ...

The main problems are for me ATM ...

Lods ! bugged not working properly
Navmesh ! nor working properly
Importer exporter for 3dsmax ! not working properly...

there are many other but those are the most important that come to my mind ....

The nav mesh bug was first introduced in Fallout 3, as that game was the first Beth game to actually use nav meshes. Oblivion used pathgrids, so no such bug existed in that game or in Morrowind.

Yet there were landscape and other quest mods for Fallout 3 as well.

Certainly didn't come off that way. Nevertheless, I still feel it's a bit early to be worrying too much, and "throwing your toys out of the pram" isn't going to help. It took Oblivion modding years to get to where it is, and they had some serious problems to overcome too.

You guys don't know do you... I'm just dropping in, but I would like to defend Prometheus here and say that he is currently working on a very large scale project. He's not just one of those people who's never made a mod in his life and is complaining.

When I read this, I start wondering what some of you are talking about.

Is there clear documentation on what these bugs are?

(If there is not any such clear documentation, how can you expect Bethesda to prioritize the issues, let alone communicate clearly when they have addressed whatever the underlying issue(s) are?)

(If there is documentation like that, maybe someone could provide some links? Even if Bethesda never fixes these problems, having clear documentation would be an invaluable service for other modders.)

(Though, to be fair, what Bethesda needs (simplest examples of the problem) is different from what modders need (simplest descriptions of the problem) -- but the examples would also help modders.)

For example, it's not fair to say that the existence and use of a navmesh data structure is a "bug". That kind of concept is way too ambiguous to be meaningful.

Crashes in Bethesda code are evidences of Bethesda bugs. AIs that do not do what you want.... not so much -- you need to be a lot more precise about use cases and relevant data when dealing with AI misbehaviors. (And these can be two sides of the same issue, since AI algorithms that eat too many resources can cause crashes -- and you probably want some kind of exception event instead of silent "dysfunctional success" when these things are removed from the game. Still, this stuff gets insanely complicated and I think we need to be helpful for Bethesda if we want them to help us.)

Note also: 3dsmax bugs are not Bethesda bugs. (Except in the sense of lack of file format documentation being an issue.) 3dsmax importers and exporters are community creations.

IMHO it doesn't matter who he is, the attitude he displayed was a bit rubbish. Of course, he might not have meant the comment in the way it's being read, but such is the way of things when you can't really emote. Even just
is much better. Far less room for misinterpretation.

Yes, there were, and if you go back and look into it, they also didn't work very well as a result of it.

There is a thread in the CK forum with all the known bugs listed(page 1). This is well documented for Beth to look at, and they have looked at it.

It has been I guess 2 months since we last heard from any of them.

This doesn't promises well tough ...

I wonder if we modders can somehow produce some sort of positive space to replace this negative one we've conjured up through stressing over the bugs and things.

We're all creative people, so it'd be great to see us keep looking forward with optimism somehow. If we can't do one thing, finish it as much as we can and then work on something else,
that's what I've been doing. The joy of creating is why we create after all, thats what we should strive to keep in mind.

@AliTheLord: Prometheus confirmed that it was indeed what he meant, and honestly I agree with those sentiments. I hope you can take time out to take a look at it if possible whenever you
can and we all would be appreciative. Also, good luck on your exams!

It's probably just best if we all take a step back and just focus on what we can do, and do what we can, and strive to not focus on what we can't do. Once you've exhausted what you can do, then
see if the environment has changed any.

Note: This isn't belittling anyone's problems or concerns, I just want us all to look forward in a positive light and do what we can and enjoy that creative time spent. Negativity is so easy to get wrapped up
in, and it just hinders the creative process in my opinion. Doing what you can will always be fun even if it isn't fully complete yet.

For what it's worth, I didn't see PROMETHEUS_ts's response as anything more than an idle comment.

As far as doing other things while waiting on these bugs to get fixed, that's precisely what I've done. The navmesh bug is crippling to the kinds of long term plans I have, but in the meantime there's other things to work on. Stuff I ordinarily would have left alone and waited for someone else to do

Eh?

No no, can't do that, hon. Those pom poms only look innocent and harmless....

I binned half the comment. No point falling out. Good answer by the way.

Yeah that was getting... strange.

Jus think of your wasted time :

on 1 to 100 scale

Time actually modding 25 %

Time using external tools , hacks, work arounds and whateverelse needed that Bethesda didn't provide to make mods 35%

Time wasted in crashes bugs , non working files , mismatching things and trying to figure out what's wrong when something is not working 40%

Welcome to a developer's life.

Poor modders

You guys should join me and do some UI modding instead!
You don't have to bother with the CK (though you might have to buy commercial tools...), you learn something useful along the way (well.. Flash.. better than nothing, right?). If you miss some feature you can add it yourself (or fail trying, then start bothering smarter people). In the end, your mods will be extra flashy! (get it?)
As a bonus, you could've started modding just about when the game was released instead of waiting for the necessary tools.

E: Oh, and my buddy Kai once told me that the game is pretty much perfect anyway. On the other hand, he also said "this game has the best interface any RPG ever had"...