I was thinking that you could update a master with creation kit, but I might be wrong about that. If Creation Kit will not let us modify a .esm file we have to build a .esp file and then convert it to .esm (which I think means: rename the file and then go into a hex editor and edit the byte at address 8 in the file -- but obviously someone could write a program that does this).


Because it's good practice? Because it's how the game engine is designed to work?



Which one? But probably not...


Ok, but in that case not only does the problem description does not explain how to reproduce the problem -- it does not even explain how to recognize the problem. Do you really want Bethesda employees to have to read some arbitrary (and unbounded, or at least unspecified) number of threads before they even can understand what you are talking about?

I wouldn't bet on it.

While your point about providing clear instructions for reproducing a bug is valid, the above quote is complete nonsense. It is neither good practice to use master files for any plugin that might require a navmesh, nor intended behaviour that navmeshes only work with master files.

Bethesda have outright stated that navmeshes only working for master files is a bug, and what should be a master file and what shouldn't still has a fair amount of flexibility, good practice has not been established. Master files are generally used for (often shared) new resources, but that's about it.

Neither. The problem specifically describes navmeshes in ESP files. Using ESM files cuts off an entire avenue of mod distribution that Bethesda themselves went to great expense to initiate, and went to a great deal of trouble to have us test in a private beta round. They've also themselves specifically said it's a bug that needs to be fixed and have stated publicly that they're working on.

Use of master files to dodge bugs is by definition a bad practice, so no, that's not an acceptable solution. If it was, it would have taken Bethesda very little time to simply allow the CK to save ESM files and solve a whole host of other problems in the process along with it. Clearly since they did not pursue this, they don't consider your idea of "best practice" to be the best practice.

Because the person who owns the thread either hasn't been around or hasn't been willing to cross it off yet for some reason. Yes, Bethesda is being more responsive than one member of the community who isn't active at the moment for reasons he did not mention to anyone. It happens

No. You've misunderstood the bug. This one manifests when you place a building and then try to walk up to it in the game. It will vanish if it's size column in the CK is > 1024. You will typically run right through where it should be, but sometimes the collision remains behind. For whatever reason, checking the "Is Full LOD" box fixes the issue as a temporary workaround.

I'm not a worldspace modder and haven't messed with this, so I'll let someone else field the whys about why this is a bug.

First, because this isn't a height issue. It's an east-west issue. Note that it doesn't manifest in a north-south line.

Second, it's definitely a bug. Easily reproduced, and wasn't present in prior iterations of this engine. Bethesda has flat out said they won't fix it because it's buried in the Havok code.

Also this isn't a new engine. That should be patently obvious to anyone who spends 5 minutes either playing or modding the game. It's Gamebryo, in all its ugly glory.

Nobody ever said it would hurt them more than us. The fact remains though that many of the bugs on that list are legit issues, though some no longer are, and yes, we as a community have a tendency to jump from initial report to verified disaster a bit too quickly. It makes us look like idiots sometimes as a result. So I do agree we need to do better. One way in which that can start is to clean up that bug list by going through and determining which ones are really still broken. It will probably require someone who is around more to take over the thread too.

Whoever agrees to do that will probably need to start a new thread.

Yes, they will. And I'm more than willing to do that when the time comes if SWG isn't around to do so.

Wouldn't the wiki would be a better place for the bug list?

I suppose so, but I really don't much care for wikis because they are far too picky about search terms when you're looking for something. I can't tell you how many times I've popped open either the CK wiki or the CS wiki, typed in something that should deliver a result, and been presented with nothing but a red link telling me I can create a new article.

Further digging at random generally turning up that I either didn't spell it right or it was given some other name that wasn't entirely logical.

Yeah, I hate searching on the wikis too. I've had to use the most roundabout searches to find what I want. And then I forget to bookmark and forget what abstract search I used .

The CK Wiki search has some issues, yep. Searching for "water" once led me to sites like http://www.creationkit.com/GetLocation_(Papyrus) or http://www.creationkit.com/Scripting_Tutorial_Using_Functions, where I'll have a hard time finding anything about, like, water.
Although for something like the bug thread, the Wiki might really be a good idea, as it can be maintained by multiple people.

The issue is that plugins are designed to override master files -- modifications -- and masters are designed to represent original content. This has consequences for the stability of save files and this has consequences for the user that has a lot of mods installed. It's not nonsense just because you do not understand those issues. However, it *is* true that these issues have little to do with navmesh.

I do not even know if navmeshes work in master files -- that aspect was a comment on the report of the problem.

However, if it turns out that the bug report was accurate -- and that navmeshes work in esm and not in plugin -- then I can easily imagine that the issue could have to do with some part of the foundation work that leads up to this distinction between how masters and plugins are handled. (That said, has anyone tested whether navmesh in plugin fails to work when the underlying surfaces are in a master file?)

So, I mixed two points here -- one had to do with how I understand esm, esp and ess files to work, and the other was a comment on what exactly is said in the bug report.

Actually it's nonsense because he DOES understand those issues, having been a long time modder in Oblivion. The rules of ESM vs ESP have not changed since then.

If the system were designed to be used the way you're saying it should be used, the CK would have shipped that way. Instead, Bethesda actively disabled the version control system that makes doing things that way viable. A clear indication that's NOT how they intended us to use the CK.

Sure it can, just like Oblivion's CS and the GECKs. Rename YourPlugin.esp to YourPlugin.ESM, load as "Active" in editor, save. The editor can't currently edit a plugin once the ESM flag is ticked, but WryeSmash has that covered as you can ESP'ify it to get back in.I'd avoid using a Hex editor as it can bork the plugin. Using the CK or WryeBash is probably easier too.

Out of curiosity, does that tick the esm flag on the file?

Also, does anyone know why they disabled the version control system? Seems like it could open up lots of possibilities for group efforts, solve a lot of bug issues.. etc.

Probably because it requires a lot of other things, and was designed to be used on an internal, private network. Not over the internet like most people would try to do. Not to mention very few people would use it, so it's another example of effort vs. gain.

I'd set up a private network for it, isn't that what stuff like Hamachi/whatever newer programs that are out are for?

Ah well. It's probably tied in with third-party software, as you point out. It's too bad, though, it would make certain development projects significantly easier.

If you've ever done networking before, you know it's never that simple. I have a feeling there would be a mountain of issues with VPN's and it would just be a huge headache. Whereas Bethesda has their very controlled, in house, private network set up and in place so it works very well. To save time and headhurt they just cut it from the CK real fast. It makes perfect sense.

Yes. When the false flag ESM is saved, the ESM flag is ticked to match the extension.

It's a good point. It's too bad there's no git-type setup, though. I can still dream, eh?

Guys it's been less than what... 3 months? There are several massive mod projects coming. As someone explained to me, they take a while to make. They will come.

You bet they take a while... I'm doing... so much work... Must break...

Not sure why this myth is still floating around, version control has not been disabled, nor does it require the setting up of a network to work. Just a few ini edits really.

Have you no idea who WrinklyNinja is?

There have been so many tests now, that the Navmesh bug needed its own separate thread for discussion.

I don't think you understand these issues entirely, so

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1367191-navmesh-bug-discussion-thread-4/

Yes.

Thank you.... good stuff.