That's valid too. Maybe you COULD do that, especially following an uninvolved sort of Greybeard path. I had kind see a mage character I have like this. Maybe you could support someone else. Dragon Age let this happen. It had so many options in the epilogue, depending on previous choices and race. You could crown one of your best friends (who had a royal bloodline), you could support existing leaders, you could encourage your friend to marry with them and create a peaceful solution. You could ditch your friend, kill everyone and take leadership for yourself. You could kill everyone and MARRY your friend. Etc.. It's pretty amazing really. Better than some default canon crap. I don't care how much anyone hates Bioware.

Well.... I know about DA (though I didn't play it BECAUSE it's Bioware and I will never give them another PENNY) because my sis played it a lot. But she actually doesn't have much good to say about all the supposed "flexibility" - and since I'm not going to ever play it, I didn't ask why....

I understand that Beth finds it necessary for whatever reason to provide "canon" (I think that's specious for various reasons, but that's a diatribe for another time - or a dissertation for PH.d - which I'm also NOT interested in finishing thankyouverymuch) - however, that doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Personally, Delphine and Esbern have lost too much, and fought too long in a losing cause for an ungrateful people, only to be cast aside when inconvienent. It's the nature of politics but it's cold comfort at best. And they said it best, they need a new purpose, and what better purpose in their minds than to make a big splash, take some good old fashioned revenge, and let the Thalmor know that they're back in a big way. I don't agree with their logic, but I get it.

I understand your (and perhaps, THEIR) point - but I don't "get" it at all. If I were Delphine.... it would have never occurred to me to worry about dragons reappearing in Skyrim. As Delphine, as a Blade, my place is in Cyrodiil, whether the current emperor wants me there or not. There's no REASON for Delphine to be in Skyrim. Unless.... she's simply there because she's a genocidal idiot.

Yeah, I'm not real thrilled with Beth's "backstory" on this game.

That's a shame. It's significantly more flexible than anything I've seen in Skyrim. Not just with your own player. Even your sidequests will have some effect on the world. It's got a kind of Lord of the Rings "Big bad evil looming in the distance" plot, so you have to try to unite the land to get ready. And you can fail in some ways at that. You could support different Dwarven houses and alter their society from a caste system to a democratic one. You could get elves in your army, or you could kill them off and recruit werewolves instead. You can completely ignore areas and later find them burned to ashes, with no one to help. You can get an army of Templars, but at the expense of wiping out innocent mages - even children.

Some things are more important that a "good game experience". And that's where I'll leave it.

Not sure what you mean...if you're replying to me.

In any case, none of my post is supposed to be about Bioware specifically. If you have some problem with them. All I meant to convey is what is possible to program into a game. The type of choices. I'd be happy if Bethesda simply did as much. So far, I can't tell what it is they're trying to shoot for. It's like... they're giving us choices, and we see no effect from them. I don't understand. It's like they can't make up their mind if they want a "canon" or not.

Ah. I had the impression you were pointing me toward playing DA.... Otherwise, yes, I fully agree with your conclusions in re Beth.

It wouldn't be a bad idea, but that's not what I'm really saying. Just that it had some cool ways to flesh out your character's "end story"/epilogue. Some of the options were the equivalent of, say, getting the choice to take over Elisif's place. Or even marrying her and coming to a compromise. Or even putting her up in a tower, like Europe used to do with it's unwanted nobles. There's a character in DA much like Elisif.

They've become obsolete. Not really a matter of good and evil.

If they're really directing it in a way where the Blades should remain as they are, sure... they're obsolete.

I REALLY want to believe we can make a difference no matter where we make our choices though. Because if we were to leave a lot of factions as they are, they'd more or less sink into obscurity too. I don't see why the Blades are any different than Companions or TG, where you sort of have to reform those groups too.

I found the Blades to be a tad fanatical, and when Delphine essentially said if I don't kill Paarth, I'm clearly their enemy, it confirmed to me that they are indeed blind fanatics.

As for the greybeards, I am partial to the meditation types cos I am into all that stuff myself (not religious, just like meditation and so on). However, I do find them a little preachy, and a tad too stuck in their ways, and I fear they are in grave danger should a war break out once again between the Thalmor and the empire, or worse, between the dragons and the people of Skyrim (or all of Tamriel).

I chose to spare Paarth, cos I can understand where he's coming from. He did a great many terrible things, and while he deeply regrets doing so it's in his nature to revert back to that, but he isolates himself by choice, and fights against that urge every second of every day, which shows a huge amount of personal strength on his part. Also, he strives to be a better "person" and teach others the way of the voice, so they may find the same measure of inner peace that he has.

I'm not sure good or evil are the right terms to use. I think they are wrong-headed. Clearly they believe on some level that their request for you to murder someone who saved the universe twice is a good request. Just as clearly, they are refusing to examine that belief in any sort of meaningful light. I am not, personally, a huge fan of people who refuse to examine their beliefs because they are afraid they might be forced to change them. I find that such people do more damage to the world as a whole than people who are intentionally doing "evil."

Serethil, not to hijack the thread, but what's your issue with Bioware?

Pretty much this.In this game, I wouldn't call them evil nor good, just cunning [censored]s that are forced into the MQ and think they can boss the dragonborn around. In oblivion they were good I guess.

The point that the Blades never asked Tiber Septim, who met Paarthurnax, to kill him, is an interesting point.

Interesting, but something I blame on the writers for not getting into. Not the Blades per se.

Since things are often poorly implemented in the game, I just try to think of possibilties and implications on what certain choices "reward" me with. I could see a lot of uses for the Blades in a post Skyrim world. The Greybeards.. not entirely sure. Maybe. If Bethesda can write "good guy" type of quests that make it more fun and involving than just sitting around and "virtually" meditating.

If you think about it, most "nice" deeds svck when you play them out. If you repair that tree in Whiterun, it's bugged if you choose the sapling route. You never get to see the sapling. If you use the sap, then Whiterun becomes beautiful. If you protect Titus Mede, it's crap. If you kill him, it's awesomely done. If you join the Thieves Guild, it's great. If you agree with Mjoll to reform Riften, it's non existent.

Sorry, I'm kind of ranting. I forgot my point now.

That's exactly how I felt.

This is totally correct. In Morrowind, they act as agents to serve the Empire through any means. They're sort of the undercover good guys, but aside from sending you to save the world, they don't actually do anything. In Oblivion, they're the main good guys, the force that serves as a wall against evil.

In Skyrim, you can tell there's only a few left, and the ones you know of have been in hiding for so long, running for their lives, and you can tell they're grumpy. They've been fighting so long and hard for their ideals that they've become close-minded. I understand why they think Paarthurnax needs to die, but they're wrong nonetheless.

The Blades are no longer worth a "Good" or "Evil" tag. They are simply a pathetic shadow of what they once were. They asked me to kill Paarthurnax, and I refused. The Old Blades would have carted me right off to prison or simply killed me. Delphine and Esbern can do no more than constantly tell me that they are upset with me.

When harsh language is all that they have left... that's just sad and pitiful. I just wish I could take off the essential tag and do Tamriel a favor by finishing the extinction of the Blades.

lawful neutral. meaning its not that they are evil, but more that they feel he broke the "law" and he needs to be brought to justice. they dont have dragon jails so they really only have one option here, his head on a platter. i will say i think they are a bunch of jerks but that because they got their asses kicked by the thalmar. i would be a pissy little [censored] if i got whipped by an elf also.

They're more or less the good guys in Oblivion but in Skyrim they're a faded force. The intentions are good but they are misguided. Of course, there are only two left and no longer have a real purpose (guarding the emperor) so they're clutching at straws. However, I wouldn't judge the Blades as a whole on the actions and opinions of the two surviving individuals.

Their not good or evil. They are just like any other human being who have limited tolerance levels and won't forgive certain actions. You'll find Angeir is the same once you kill the dragon in question.

200 years on,one has gone to ground the other operating as a stand alone accruitment cell,whats more to say,they would try anything to stay viable though i would have liked more guerilla type hit and run quests against the Thalmor.

They're morally grey. One may see them as heroic dragonhunters who slay Nirn's dragons and support the Dragonborn in order to protect the world while another might see them as brutal and unsophisticated killers who committed genocide on the remnaining dragons.

In Morrowind, they're anti-heroic; they're well aware that the Empire's days are numbered, and just want to protect it's citizens and keep things as stable as possible. If doing that means letting a known criminal off the hook or robbing a sacred tomb, so be it.

In Oblivion, things were a lot simpler. All they had to do was save the world, so of course they were the good guys.

In Skyrim, they're well intentioned, but ultimately misguided. They want to protect the world like the Blades in Oblivion, but they lack the wisdom that their predecessors in Morrowind and Oblivion had.