I may have a very old-fashioned concept of canon. I'll try to explain.



Sorry to say, in some odd way I think they're canon.



Easter eggs aren't necessarily non-truths, is what I'm saying. There's a difference between a simple nod to a certain phenomenon and an expansion built around it. To me, when you buy something that was created by the developers, it's canon, ESPECIALLY if it is a DLC pertaining to a specific product. Fallout 2 is irrevelant. This is Fallout 3 DLC, as in 'stuff that belongs to Fallout 3', as in 'things we thought you might wanna play in addition to the game'. Whatever's gonna happen in Fallout 4 or any other next instalment is completely irrelevant, seeing as how the games are unrelated. But Fallout 3 DLC parts ARE related to Fallout 3, hence they cannot be dismissed as 'non-canon' and so they become canon.



I see what you're getting at. But then again, if MZ changes the story of Fallout to a point where it's ruined, that's really not my problem. I didn't create it. They did. Their story, their aliens. I play this stuff and forget about it pretty quickly (until next I start the game of course).

If your Fallout 3 character never enters the spaceship, then IN YOUR PLAYTHROUGH, MZ isn't canon. Then again, suppose I've never met, say, Wolfgang or anyone else in the Wasteland... does that mean they don't exist in the Fallout 3 universe?

I guess my definition of canon is pretty big. I see the Fallout 3 universe as something enormous and ridiculous and fun and beautiful and sad and crazy and weird. Everything I can possibly encounter in the game when I shove in that disc and/or download official expansion sets is canon. Because it's there, and it cannot be denied.

I get the concept of easter eggs. Mothership Zeta isn't that.

Of course, I am in no way trying to prove myself right or anyone else wrong. I love discussing these things, and coming from some really immature community boards, I have to save I love the maturity of the people here and the topics.

Unfortunately, I think that the Fallout franchise is going the way of the post Ian Fleming James Bond franchise. If Fallout 4, 5 etc. are released I can see the series becoming something very different from what we are used to.

then he will be canon to Fallout according to how Bethesda works.

man, you Bethesda guys used to be so cool and doesn't afraid of anything, and now look at you.

Well, while SW fans were (are) screaming "Lucas raepd my childhood", most of original Fallout series fans were (and are even more with more new Fallouts) "Bethesda raepd my Fallout". Sure, whoever owns the rights decides what's cannon. But for most of us old fans, canon died with BIS. I wonder what would LOTR fans say if Jackson got exchanged with another director after making first two movies and the new director would add flying saucers to the "canon". LOL

Beth's way and BIS's way of doing things is is like heaven and hell. While original devs were making Fallout, the new ones are mainly striving to make it look like Fallout. I cringe every time I see the "new" intros which combine innocent music with camera slowly zooming out and showing the remains of civilization in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

Exactly that, (the part I underlined.) I think that for the term "canon" to have any meaning or relevence in discussion at all, it can only be in reference to those element which must take place. Your father in Fallout 3 is canon - because there's no possible way that you can play Fallout 3 without encountering him in some fashion or another. He is integral to the entire story, regardless of which direction your playthrough takes you.

And we're talking about an ostenisbly "open world" game where the whole point is, largely, for the player to decide what their experience is going to be, to as great a degree as is technologically possible. There's tons of the stuff that's "in the game," for lack of a better term. But simply existing within the code of the game doesn't mean that it has to be canon. And by virtue of it's own definition, canonical elements are either intrinsic to the very fabric of the narrative, or they aren't canon. (ie, if it doesn't absolutely need to be canon, then it absolutely cannot be described as such.)

I have played Fallout 3. I finished the game, without purchasing any DLC. I never went to Alaska, or the Pitt, or was abducted by aliens. Yet it cannot be denied that I finished the game. I have done a complete playthrough of the game. And yet I was never abducted by aliens. Erego, by definition, there's (thus far) nothing concerning aliens that makes it an integral part of "playing through Fallout 3." The game can be played without ever experiencing a single alien, therefore I don't see how it can be considered canon. (Because like I said, if it doesn't have to be considered canon, then it can't be considered as such.)

By virtue of the very fact that you can play through Fallout 3 without ever coming into contact with an alien of any kind, it can't be canon. If there was no way I could beat the game without coming across the Crashed Spaceship (or even if I had to really go out of my way to avoid it,) then certainly it would be a canonical element. It's "part of the game," but not "canon." Unless something occurs in Fallout 4 to retroactively make that a vital aspect of the game (ie, Fallout 2 assuming your Fallout 1 PC was at least a half-way decent dude,) that's going to remain the case, here.

time to close the discussion then with that final statement from mr. Nu clear day.

Aliens are not Canon. :brofist:

Edit: I agree they are not canon.

I feel very silly for asking this, but what are you referring to? I played through Mothership Zeta, and all I got out of it, story-wise, was that while all this other stuff was going on, there were little green men in space, occasionally abducting people. Not huge, about as believable as the entire alternate-history that the Fallout series takes place in, and completely inconsequential, really having nothing to do with anything.

Why is this in danger of becoming a fight? Why is anyone taking this so seriously?! One of the things that I always loved about Fallout was that it did not take itself too seriously. It threw in references and strange (if familiar) characters for little more than a chuckle, and just as easily forgot them, without having to explain what happened to them and why. Let there be aliens if people want them, don't bother explaining how a whale carcass got to the middle of the desert, and try not to think about that well in Modoc.

EDIT: After going through and re-re-rereading some of the prior posts, I realized that I'm dealing with the same brand of fanatic that will never accept Fallout 3 because *gasp!* it was made by a different company. Seriously, you people are the reason I left "No Mutants Allowed"...and sadly, that means they're not going anywhere, and will instead continue to complain bitterly as Bethesda carries on with the franchise that it brought back from the unquestionably dead.

Well I am glad there are more "fanatic fallout fans" out there! Go no mutants allowed. If there were not as many "fanatic fallout fans" out there Beth would have never bought the series to make game they call fallout. It was a good game but so much was missing.

people are angry because the audiolog that implies the aliens are responisble for the great war ruins a lot of the story of the games

on the other hand, the fact that the audiolog doesnt actually have any voice acting probably implies that it was just someone at gamesas having a little fun

That is exactly what I said months ago...

Now, I'm back with NMA (down with bethesda and their gestapos) because now I understand why the hatred. In fact my hatred began to grow as many franchise became abominations because of corporal greeds, not only video games, but also novels and such...

But of course, like I said, I already accept that the world isn't fair...

Somehow, I feel the need to respond to this. I don't particularly feel that I'm being singled out in this, but still; I want to be perfectly clear about some things, here.

Boiling this particular debate about the "canonicity" of aliens within the Fallout universe to a broad generalization is really missing the point entirely. I'm very much one of these old "die-hard" Fallout fans. The first game blew my mind when it first came out, and I even dropped one of my college courses so that I could spend more time playing it. I also very much enjoyed Fallout 3. It wasn't the game I'd been hoping for the previous ten years (and this is where I think a lot of misunderstanding occur -

-as an example, let's say that had a girlfriend who made the best chocolate-chip pancakes you'd ever tasted. Then she dumps you. Maybe she was a little bit crazy, and it wasn't the most healthy relationship ever, but for the next ten years you still find that you really do miss those pancakes. One day you meet a new girl, you both fall madly in love, and for your birthday you learn that she's going to suprise you by hunting down that recipe you loved and make some pancakes for you. You're very excited, and very much looking forward to it, and then the morning of your birthday comes along; she brings it out to you on a silver platter, lifts up the cover, and you find that she's made you chocolate-chip waffles. They might be excellent waffles, and she gave you what she thought you'd wanted, but there's still a hole in your life where those chocolate-chip pancakes are supposed to be. That's kind of what Fallout 3 was to a lot of people. Whether or not it was a good game is sort of beside the point - it's still not going to satisfy that craving for the specific sort of game we're looking for.)

Back to point, however, I even enjoyed the alien crashlanding in Fallout 3. I consider that element to "part of the game." It's skippable, however, doesn't play any greater role than being an excuse to give you the Alien Blaster and some ammo, and has really nothing to do with the rest of the game. Love it or hate, it's just not a very big deal either way.

In regards to aliens as a whole (and specifically the Mothership Zeta DLC,) it doesn't have to be any more complicated than this: it's optional content. Those of us who don't particularly care for aliens being any more prevalent in the Fallout universe than the occasional random encounter or mention are perfectly free to simply not buy that particular DLC, and therefore are perfectly in the "right" to ignore it. Those who want more alien content can have their wish fulfilled as well - by purchasing that DLC and (hopefully) enjoying that extra content. More power to you. Everybody wins.

The thing is, however - there's literally only one thing that will ever convince me that aliens are "canon" within the Fallout universe. (And remember my previous posts, that by definition, only those elements which must be canon, can ever be considered to be canon...) And that's if Fallout 4 (or possibly New Vegas, even) gives me a questline which I can't bypass (or can only through lots of forethought, or a walkthrough,) or ignore, that somehow makes the presence of aliens integral to the narrative of the game.

It's not even about whether or not I like the idea of aliens, or how much I loved (or hated) Fallout 3. The fact is that it's not an essential part of the story. I don't see why it's any more complicated than that, or why we have to bring the whole "some people didn't enjoy this game as much as I did" thing into it.

That's a very good point for canonicity regarding nonlinear RPGs, nu_clear_day.

Unless it MUST be done in the game, it's in canon-limbo until referenced by a later game...

Aliens are a good source of powerful weapons. I hope to see them more in future games, the alien rifle was great fun.

Yay! The forum got an extreme make-over! hopefully more people will come now


*cough*

Let's get back to the discussion, shall we?

I just realised that Loki said we' hate FO 3 because it was made by different company, no we're not. We hate it because they change the game design to appeal casual players while alienating us in the process.

If i see an alien in New Vegas i shall switch off my 360, take the disc out, burn it, then start crying....

This is a terrible arguement. If you have not noticed, aliens have their OWN DLC. They are canon.

Kind of my feelings as well. I think I love to hate this topic...

That sounds about right, to me.

It often seems to me that a lot of those who push the "Aliens are Canon" agenda are really just looking to... "legitimize" the Mothership Zeta DLC. Of course, I don't think that's really necessary. As has been said, if you thought the one thing that Fallout 3's vanilla game was missing was more aliens, then you now have the option to get exactly that. That still sounds like a win/win to me.

The thing is, that at best I'd concede that makes it "semi-canon," if that. And I don't think it's even necessary to go that far with it. All DLC is, by virtue of it's own existence - optional. I think I've said this before: the very word "canon" implies something that has to happen (even retro-actively,) during my playthrough of the game, as far as a game that's ostensibly an open-world RPG is concerned. Erego - any DLC (regardless of whether or not anyone "likes" it,) can only at best be described as "semi-canon." Because none of that stuff has to happen for the game to reach it's ultimate conclusion.

I can buy a DVD, watch the movie, and then check out the special features included. All those deleted scenes and alternate endings were put on that disk by those responsible for getting that movie on a disk so that I can watch it. It's all there for a reason. But that doesn't make those deleted scenes "canon" in regard to the movie. I don't see how the same doesn't apply to DLC in Fallout 3. I might even really like some of those deleted scenes, and occasionally I'll think that some of those scenes would have made for a better movie had they been included in the actual film - I'm free to consider that scene a part of the overall narrative. Where I'm going to get into trouble is if I start trying to get other people to give that deleted scene as elevated a status as I think it deserves.

But, since there already is a crashed alien ship that is part of the vanilla game along with alien cells scattered around the wasteland in various places, wouldnt that mean, by your logic, it is canon? I mean, you cannot change its existance unless you mod the game, nor can you act as if it never happened.

People ignoring arguments they have no counter for? My goodness.

The argument about how they aren't canon is pointless. we've seen them in a DLC, we saw a little bit of 'em in Fallout 3, there has continuously been crashed UFOs in the series and they have documented info on them. So clearly they are canon and saying they aren't won't change anything.

Last topic you had said that I should "play through again" because MZ "says" the aliens started the great war. That is a hilariously over interpreted meaning from ONE of the recordings of a military member who posses the launch codes for some ICBMs being interrogated for them. That recording ends with him drifting off in pain. It says no where that aliens started the great war and that over interpreted conclusion persists so people looking for things to vehemently hate and blame Bethesda for have something to keep parroting.

You'd think for how often people on this forum like to bring up what would be the single most important lore addition/change in the entire franchise about the most important moment in the lore would have more then one minor recording out of 25 to reference, and liberally interpret.

Well here's the whole data bit from Fallout 3

(Alien Babble)
Our defenses consist of 3 battalions of light infantry, 34
pieces of field artillery, 108 armored vehicles and 42
aerial vehicles.
(Alien Babble)
We have 38 ICBM's always on alert and ready to fire when
the word is passed down from the White House.
(Alien Babble)
The codes to activate the launch sequences are...are...
uhhngh...no...I can't let you...uggh...get out of my mind!
(Alien Babble)
Agggh! The c-codes...are...ugh....no...I can't betray...AGH!
My head! I can't...won't...AGGGGH! agggh...

I think it's pretty damn clear what they were alluding to. Aliens are somehow taking thoughts out of this soldiers head so they can find out about Americas military. In the last bit they are getting the codes to activate the launch sequences for 38 ICBMS.

Also it doesn't take a whole lot to mess up canon. Especially not when it's about something as integral to the Fallout universe as whether human greed led to their destruction...or those darn aliens.

Aliens abducting a man who has very privileged information like that and then wanting it doesn't surprise me. I agree that they could easily expand off of it to have it mean they also used the codes as well, although I don't imagine the U.S. military would be so stupid as to not notice an alien disguised as a man walking around in the ICBM launch code area and then starting to enter them in what I would assume is a heavily guarded area. Or do you think a place as important as this would have remote means to activate such firepower? That would be rather unrealistic considering no military has or I assume would ever have it's nuclear armed ICBMs set to be used remotely and be a huge risk for sabotage. But until there is anything that says they used the codes they didn't, and I disagree that Bethesda would make such a huge change to the lore and designate it to such a minor and ambiguous part of the game.

And worst case scenario that this is a change to the lore that was added in... you can't say "human greed" didn't lead to the nations arming themselves to that extent and turning the world into a powder keg. But that isn't preferable nor relevant because that is likely not what the recording implies.