And who exactly are you referring to?

I think they should. However it gets complicated.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/09/the-end-of-used-major-ruling-upholds-tough-software-licenses.ars

Steam is adding another layer to the issue in addition to the game's eula, I think.

Oh I've read it. Software developers add whatever they can think of to the EULA, on the chance that it will be enforceable in court (and because it costs them virtually nothing, and their customers usually won't care/understand, or be in a position to refuse ~they need the tool for a job). They do this with the same ruthlessness as a highway "samaritain" that will drive a stranded motorist out of the desert if they agree to outlandish demands ~ and the person in that situation might say anything to get back to town.... Imagine if the police were bound by the court to enforce those demands (using the same, "but you agreed to it"... "Now give him your shoes, clean his pool, and walk his dog, after paying him the $678 and 42￠ ").

The solution is simple ~cold turkey. If every commercial and home user stayed with (for example) CS3, and did not buy CS5 due to loud disagreement of the EULA, the company would risk the loss of a years income; and the situation would change within mere months. This won't happen of course, because there are too many people that will buy it anyway and click past the EULA.

Games are exactly the same, but in a worse position. because part of the population considers them trivia, while another part only considers their want of them.
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It'd be nice if Developers had to have their EULA's reviewed (and cleaned) by an independent body; even restricted from certain clauses, unless their price point exceeded certain minimums. It'd also be nice if all EULAs were mandated to provide resale rights to private consumers.
They only started this because they found out that they could get away with it.

Steam is a quandary though, How can Steam claim to intend stripping the DRM (should they fail), when they are the license, and the games would (seem to) work without them, if they did?

*Also... a child can buy Zuma at Walmart and install it, does that mean that they are legally bound by the contract?

That's horrible Gizmo. When I downloaded Steam it gave me an option to print out my information. I did so and taped it into my journal and another copy into my documents on my pc. It's something I've learned to do since I am getting more forgetful by the minute.

I have it stored, but that's the problem... It won't accept it.

I'll just wait until a STEAM support staffer helps me get it reset. They are good about getting back to you.

Ah, code wheels..... still better than online authentication. :whistling:


(And thanks for reminding me of that game - it was fun )

Though I agree with this statement, you have to understand it's for a reason. That reason being people can easily copy it and crack it so they can keep it for themselves and make a profit by selling it to others. It's basically the same reason why most stores wont let you return your PC games (or at least most stores I've been to) because you can easily burn a copy and return the original game for a full refund. It's basically like getting a game for free.

It's funny how most DRM's try to prevent piracy, but all they seem to do is increase it.

If my wording and everything sounds off, excuse me. I just woke up 20 min. ago. :spotted owl:

As for the Steam activation issue, I don't mind it. As long as it's not as messy as GFWL was, I'm happy.

I don't know why people hate steam, i absolutely love it!

How would that work, if transfers were handled from within Steam, and the act of transferring removed access to the game from your account?


***One wonders why Valve does not add a blob of AES or Rijndael into the EXE on a per client basis with some dates, names and some system details that they decrypt when you activate or login. If they were clever (and we know they are), they could determine two players from one player with two PC's.

I've spoken out about Steam being the only option available. I may find I actually like it once I am FORCED into using it. That has always been my problem with The Steam Situation (could be an iconic name for it like The Bonnie Situation lol), I am being forced into using software on MY PC.

I used to feel the same way but now all my games work through steam, i can play without a disk, get all my updates in one place, redownload the game when i need to, and a large community.

You're not forced to use Steam, just like you're not forced to play any game that requires it. But when you agree to play a game, you agree to play by the rules that the developer chooses, and if that involves Steam, so be it. But no one if forcing you to do anything.

You have to use lots of software on your PC. An operating system. DirectX. Various drivers. Any non-steam DRM for various games (Securom is a big one). An internet browser. I'm sure I could think of more.

Oh, I understand the reasons...I've been gaming on PCs for a long time. The difference is that in your "store-bought" anology I could do exactly the same thing should I be so inclined. I buy boxed copies of used games on eBay all the time. The fact that I can't give a game to somebody or sell it bugs me. Like I said, I almost never do it, but I feel Valve should at least attempt to give someone with a Steam license to a game the same rights as someone with a boxed copy.


See, that doesn't bother me. Other games install other forms of DRM on your computer. The fact that Steam is a separate app versus a separate product bundled into the game itself isn't a problem in my eyes. In fact, in some ways I like it because at least I know what it's doing and how it works, which is more than I can say for many bundled DRM products.

To me I'd rather be forced to use Steam than deal with something like SecuROM. SecuROM won't let you run your games if you have certain other programs running (like common things such as Process Explorer and virtual drive software), which is even worse than requiring a program to run, IMO.


Yep, I enjoy those advantages as well. Steam is definitely a trade-off. I'm pretty ambivalent about it overall. It has pros and cons.

I am able to paste my password into the steam password dialog box. I use a program called http://pwsafe.org/ to generate strong passwords and store them securely. I don't actually know my Steam password, I double click it from the Password Safe, which copies it into the clipboard and then paste it into Steam. I do have Steam set to remember the password so I don't have to do it every time, but I just logged out of Steam and back in and I was able to paste the password.

I haven't had to go through the password recovery process, so I don't know if it is different. I didn't even know Steam added a secret question and answer to the recovery options, so I just now added that to mine. Again, while setting up the secret question/answer it prompted me for my password and I was able to copy it from my safe and paste it into the dialog box. They should add the option of using a mobile phone to send a text message with a reset code in it like some other online services do.

Best news ever! :woot:

It is the recovery box that won't allow direct pasting. Steam asks your secret question, and then asks for a new password without confirming that the secret answer is correct. If you type it wrong, you do not find out until after you've typed in your new password twice ~and then it fails, citing that the secret answer was wrong.

Currently it seems that I don't know the secret answer (might be a case spelling issue, who knows... But I can't find out if I'm wrong until after I type the new password twice).

**BTW the login works now, but I still can't change my password yet.

Sometimes the paste hotkey (ctrl-V) will work even if you can't actually paste into the box normally.

I concur...

But what am I going to do with all those 'extra' Microsoft points left over from the Fallout 3 DLCs? You need 800 points..but can only buy 1200 at a time...bahh..

Can't get a refund huh?

Good riddance to GFWL...!

The Password Safe program has an auto type function on it that can come in handy if you can't paste the password. Also, as Cpl. Facehugger said, CTRL-V usually works if you can't right click and paste.

That is handy. There is also a device call a YubiKey that will do the same thing.
Amazingly Windows has its own virtual keyboard that will do nothing of the sort. :laugh:

"Control + V" will often work for library code, but won't work if they write their own and don't include it.

Considering that it's happened before, I'd say that yes, it IS something we need to worry about.



I'd agree that it's a good thing too if it didn't come at the price of needing to use Steam instead. At least in Fallout 3, I could safely ignore Games For Windows Live and still play the game, sure, it's there, but as long as I don't have to use it, I don't care, on the other hand, Steam doesn't give me that option. So, to be perfectly honest, if I had to choose between a game which I must use Steam to play and a game which includes Games for Windows Live but uses it like Fallout 3, I'd choose the latter any day.



I'm glad you like it, too bad I can't agree. So I can play without a disc? So what? I'd rather go through the simple step of inserting the DVD into the drive then need to have Steam running every time I play the game, and so what if I get all my updates in the same place? I can download patches myself, thank you, and when I do that, I can choose to download them when I want. So, if, for example, the latest patch for the game introduces some bugs (It's happened to Fallout 3 before.) I don't need to download it, I can wait until a new patch that fixes them is released, or if a mod I have doesn't work with the latest patch, I can wait until the mod is updated to function with the latest patch. I can't with Steam, with Steam, if I activate it in online mode, it downloads the patches automatically, whether I like it or not. And so what if I can redownload games when I need to? If I have the game disc, I can install them from it when I need to and I don't need to wait for my computer to download the game. And a large community? I don't care! I've never desired to be a part of the Steam community, so it doesn't make me want to use it any more. All I use Steam for is for playing games, and only because it's the only option I have for playing certain games, as far as I'm concerned, every feature of Steam that ISN'T directly connected to playing games is entirely pointless. And yet, even those who don't want it still need to use it if they want to play the game, and that's my problem, I don't mind it if a Steam version of the game exists, but it's ridiculous that I should still a seperate program to play the game once I've bought a retail copy of it, and if Steam was just there for the players' convenience, there WOULD be non-Steam versions, but the real reason it's being used is for DRM, obviously. In short, it's a program that causes invoncenience for players for the sake of making piracy slightly more difficult, EXACTLY like Securom, the method is somewhat different, but the purpose is the same.

So yeah, I don't want to use Steam, yet the designers still insist on forcing me to use it, and as much as I'd like to refuse to buy the game because of Steam, I want this game too much to do that.



By this reasoning I could also defend the developers if they decided to turn the game into a generic FPS with a completely linear path, no RPG elements, and make every single living thing in the game hostile towards you, after all, if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to play it, so it's fine, right?

Yes, no one is forcing anyone to buy the game even though it uses Steam, but when the developers are offering me a choice of "Use Steam." and "Don't play our game at all." it's really not much of a choice, and besides, maybe if enough players object to the decision to use Steam, they'll decide to stop using it, it's unlikely that it will happen with New Vegas at this point, but maybe with future Bethesda or Obsidian games, if we can convince them that using Steam is a bad idea, they'll stop using it. I'm not sure what the chances of that happening are, but I know it's definately not happening if all we do is praise them for choosing Steam.

Indeed, while Live did install with FO3, it's usage was optional & that was a good thing. I would choose the Latter as well.


I agree with everything you said, there needs to be more options than Steam or no play (digi-distro or Disc really doesn't make a diffrence if they are both slaved to the same system)

With communities as diverse as the TES/Fallout communities one single system just wont fit everyone.

You can set steam so that it does not auto-update and forgetting your login info is not their fault. You can shut off steam after the game loads. It is kind of annoying at times, but it is not as bad as GFWL.

this seems to be the new Steam thread so i probs should post here

Does anyone know if i buy a US retail (read: hard) copy of fallout: NV, and install it on my machine will my Australian steam account accept it?
Why i ask is that the price difference is pretty substantial, 89 AUD from JB HI FI and 55 USD from playasia.com and with the upcoming AUD/USD parody it should be quiet similar.

any help would be much appreciated
cheers in advance
Diablo