Game Dev's have to protect their franshise, that's a valid point, but still that won't change the tendency :

1. Pirates will play the game - DRM or not
2. Those who want the game - as real target customers - simply will buy it .... and actually the fact of "Security solutions" might sometimes drag 1 % of potential customers away from buying it.

My point is that Security DRM's - be it Steam or not, might hinder the sale rates, rather than improve them....since DRM doesn't ENFORCE tendency that more people will buy the game - it changes nothing ! - with DRM either still the same exact number of people will buy the game (assuming they will show understanding for putting DRM).....or less compared to the ammount, if there was no DRM at all - because adding STEAM is often considered a flaw of the game from the start of it's existence.

That's an argument against DRM, not an argument against Steam. I'm not arguing whether or not DRM is effective or whether or not it's inconvenient to customers. I'm just saying that leveling those arguments against Steam directly isn't really fair. That's why I was asking in my last post if the people that are against Steam are really against Steam or if they're against DRM. In my opinion Steam is less of a nuisance overall than most other forms of DRM currently being used.

For a potential tax-payer

A tax of 3 % is a lot better (STEAM), than tax of 5 % (other DRM's)

However, we do know that, if the tax-payer was to be fully satisfied - he would like to pay 0% taxes (no DRM's). Since, that is can't-do, because Dev's need to protect the franchise somehow - a classic .exe with DVD check would be enough.

- Those who would like STEAM - would buy the game online and download it off it.
- Those who want phisical DVD in their hands and no STEAM - buy the game at game store and install it and run it the classic DVD-check way.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with that. However, it's possible that Bethesda Softworks doesn't think the disc check is as effective as other methods and is seeking alternatives (broad speculation). The point being that we don't know if a disc check is considered a viable alternative by Bethesda.

From the developer's perspective, if they were to offer a version without Steam they would have to find an alternative way to handle achievements or omit them from the game. I personally wouldn't care if they were omitted, but some people would. From Bethesda/Obsidian's perspective Steam is a good deal because they get DRM and achievements from one product.

Anyway, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. A lot of the arguments in this thread seem to be against DRM in general or are coming from misunderstandings about how Steam works. I'd prefer a simple disc check or no DRM as well, of course.

I tried to get some clarification on that last week but I've yet to see an official reply. As far as I can tell, PC users will not be able to play until the game "unlocks" on Steam, which is well after midnight in most territories. That does mean, as far as I can tell, that 360 and PS3 buyers will be able to purchase the game at midnight and go home and play while PC users will have to wait.

I'm hoping that it changes, but it would be consistent with the last major Steamworks game, Civ5, where you could not play the game until Steam unlocked it.

Well... what about having Steam on the DVD and installing it for achievements if one wants them? (couldn't an an INI flag be implemented to just NULL/ignore any achievements found in the scripts?)

I certainly have no use for them. :shrug:

As would I.
I just bought three games today that had no DRM. :foodndrink: (I wouldn't have bought them if they had.)

Good advice, I was wavering on weather to install and configure Steam before hand or let the game disc run the entire process to ground - I'll go plow into it ahead of time this week. Putting Windows 7 on for the first time, I'll prolly wait until mid-week after that's done and install steam fresh on the new system.

Cheers!

7 days, 17 hours, 16 minutes.

Yes, that will ease your mind considerably. ^_^

Sheesh, I probably will have to wait two weeks from now on, knowing how sloooow things from the Isles are delivered with non-express delivery. Worse, I can only check the community forum on this board in fear of spoilers, which reduces my available lurking grounds to 75% of their usual capacity. Vegas is killing me!

Hrm that definitely svcks! What you need is a Yank friend to buy you a copy and Fedex it - you could beat the European release dates, and it should be legal as long as you pay any duties on the material...

I mean you going to Vegas after all - who plays by the rules?! :disguise: If it's not legal, then all I can say is drink lots of beer and avoid this place!

But then the nation (developer) would go bankrupt because they have no money to pay their bills (piracy would go up, up, UP!).

DRM is like a lock, it keeps honest people honest. There's a saying over here: "Opportunity makes a thief". Thieves gonna thieve, but the lock removes the opportunity. Those planning to thieve are going to get by it.

Even if that would beat the release date, Steam would make me unable to play the game before it is released over here. Which is fine with me, though, since that is about protecting the local offline game dealers and not actually a problem with Steam. ^_^

I just bought Civilization 5 from Gamestop, which requires Steam to play also. When I installed Civ 5 it didn’t install from the game it downloaded the game from Steam once I entered the game key for Steam. So basically unless I did something wrong, which I’m sure I didn’t, you don’t install from the CD you download and install from Steam. But, if someone else was able to install from the Civ 5 disc please tell me what I did wrong. Other than downloading and installing through Steam I have no problems using Steam, I just hate buy a disc and not at least having the game on it. Which I hope isn't the case with FO:NV.

Was CIV heavily patched? (since release, but prior to your install?)

No Steam game that I have on disc has ever installed via Steam. In fact... I have a Halflife¹ bundle on DVD that will not install at all because the disc is inaccessible.
(Steam has my key, but will not install unless it sees the DVD.)

Did you ask Steam to Install the game or Activate the game?

I had Steam do this to me years ago back when Halflife 2 came out, I installed all the games from the disk, then Steam downloaded and installed all the games again. I hope this is clear on Activation this time around.

I fully read you post, and I know how Steam Wallet works, for now. I was just pointing out that nothing is stopping Steam for making you buy "Steam points" in the future. They could start selling points in odd amounts (500, 1000, 1500, etc.) while games cost even amounts (400, 800, 1600, etc.).

Except that whole supposition is irrational, baseless and fear-based.

It gives them a competitive advantage in the advertising department. "We don't gyp our customers with arbitrary points". What motivations to go Points-based do they have besides baseless worries?

I suppose I should make an amendment to my rant: Base your dislike of Steam on facts and opinions, NOT fallacies or irrational suppositions.

What motivations do they have? Money, greed, the same thing that motivates other companies to do things to screw over customers. You have assumed I don't like Steam, but you are wrong. If I dislike Steam so much, why have I bought over 40 games from them? I like Steam, and that is why the introduction of this wallet worries me. Ask yourself this, why did they need to implement this Steam Wallet service if you can put just what you need in it for a purchase? The http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/ (that thing you have to agree to, but never read) pretty much tells you of their motivation:

Any funds you put in your wallet can only be used to buy things from Steam, they can not be withdrawn. They want to get your money in their wallet so you have to use it at their store. Currently on the http://store.steampowered.com/steamaccount/addfunds/, you can only add funds of $5, $10, $25, $50 and $100. They may not call it "Steam points," but the concept is the same, to make you add funds to your wallet in fixed amounts that are more than what it costs to make a purchase so your leftover funds are stuck there. Yes, they currently still let you make purchases with credit/debit cards and PayPal, and I hope I am wrong but this could be the first step to gently get people onto a "point" type system.

You say "base your dislike of Steam on facts and opinions, NOT fallacies or irrational suppositions." I say don't let your unconditional love for Steam blind you into thinking that they would never do anything to "gyp" their customers.

I think the Steam wallet will just stay an additional thing for smaller purchases. Not worried about that right now, Valve has not changed their customer friendly attitude in the store.

You quoted my post which told folks about the Steam function that makes it check whether you have an install disk available, so you should use that. Or you could have used some basic search through Google when you had those problems, which is how I came up with this in the first place.
Why would the disk be completely filled with data if there was only the Steam installer on it?

That Steam is in use doesn't bother me much, I already deal with it for things like CS:S. What does have me a bit concerned, is there an official time set in stone yet on when activation will be available for PC users? I would like to know if it's worth the effort to get up to the midnight release, or just wait til morning to pick up my preorder. I don't have to go in to work til that Thursday, so want to get the most out of it.

This is not announced yet. However I would imagine that Midnight EST for the US is when they start allowing activations for the US. Does this mean that folks farther West will get to activate it earlier (really at the same time as the folks on the East Coast, just a difference in clock settings) like at 10 PM on the 18th? That is not known either.

So, I can safely guess that at Midnight on the 19th, you can activate the game. Who's timezone that Midnight takes place in remains to be seen.

I'm not sure why you think that. Hopefully things will change, but right now all we have to go on is the countdown clock on Steam. It clearly is counting down to 10AM PST/1PM EST on the 19th for North American users.

Yeah, it might change. But until we get an official statement, it's probably safer to assume that you won't be able to play until Steam says you can on the 19th, at least for PC buyers.

I question the accuracy of the clock. I have not seen one of these before on Steam as I just started using it again. However the count down timer target just makes no sense to me. As almost every game that releases is availible at Midnight on that day why would they push off the activation until mid day on release day? Even in places that don't have a Midnight Release event, folks could still get the game early, before 6AM (if not earlier) at Walmart and 9 or 10 AM from Gamestops. In any event, 1 PM EST does not line up with any logical time zone for Midnight, well I think Mongolia works but that might be on the wrong day. I get confused on that, anyway, that clock can't be counting down to the release time.

Well, it does say 'approximately'

I've rarely seen many of this countdowns on Steam by more than 80% accurate. Had some games unlock before the target time and some unlock sometime after.

The countdown clock is wrong. I pre-ordered Dead Rising 2 on Steam a couple weeks ago. The countdown clock indicated that the game would unlock around noon (?) on release day. I tested it that morning before work (around 7am EST), and the game was already playable. It may not unlock right at midnight, but I don't think it will make you wait too long.

My experience is that the countdown clock is generally accurate. Not necessarily to the minute, but in most situations the game unlocks at that time or later. As I noted earlier, it could change at some point and I hope it does. I just think that assuming it will unlock at midnight is wishful thinking.

Of course this would all be a moot discussion if Bethesda would just tell us what the plan is.