THIS is what I'm talking about. Good stuff, len... good stuff. We have all this info and a chart for Smithing, but nothing for Alchemy... until now.

Where to put this... hmm.
-Loth

Giant toes are hard to get ingredients. The selling price of the potion is in the 3000 range, which makes it hard to realize the full resell price.

The best way to level alchemy is Damage Magicka Regeneration/Fortify Health potions using Blue Mountain Flower and Hanging Moss. Two very common ingredient with two of the more expensive effects. The other is a Slow potion using Salt Pile and Deathbell, again, easy to find ingredients.

I'm adding this, too... dammit, the post edit function better not bug on me again... GRRR!
-Loth

PS Please enjoy the new formatting on the first page of the Guide... you should have seen it a minute ago before I re-re-re-edited it.

Edit: okay, we're in the clear... Anybody have any other good advice for adding to the Guide? This is excellent info, so far... I'm thinking about all the times I've passed these ingredients by without a second thought, but it could be fun for me to try and do some alchemy leveling just to get perks for something else, and never to use the pots I make. 3000 gold for one potion? Good Lord... that's a lot of scratch for one little bottle of gunk!

You've done amazing work getting it up to speed. One thing no one has really covered is the thresholds for followers. While this is outside the scope of "your" character, they can still utilize a lot of the tradeskilled upgrades. Since they have different caps, they can benefit even more so, though no one has detailed this in any of the threads, yet.

dont forget dead thralls, that adds another layer to customization. and if anyone is interested i have several doctoral dissertations about the subject.

Dudes... let's do this. There is no reason to not have a follower/thrall section in the Guide as it pertains to crafting and relevant bonuses from such. If they have different caps, then let's see the math. Test this out, Domilasa-style. Bring it.

-Loth

Just to add a small contribution to this great thread:
For Fortify Enchanting potions:
I get snowberries from Dawnstar. There are 12 or 13 plants from where you land if you fast travel and run towards Iron Breaker Mine.
There are several Blue Butterflies flying around Whitewatch Tower - you have to catch them though.

Fortify Smithing:
There are about 18 Glowing Mushrooms in the Honningbrew basemant (you get the key as part of the Dampened Spirits Thieves Guild quest - I'm not sure if it's a pickable lock).
Arcadia's Cauldron in Whiterun has three free Blisterwort (and one free Spriggan Sap) that respawn that you can just take off the counter. She also seems to always have several to sell if you don't want to wait for them to respawn.

If you want to use the Fortify Restoration exploit/bug there are about 8 or 10 Cyrodilic Spadetail and Abecean Longfin (I think I spelled those right) with a bunch of Salt Piles in the fish barrels on the docks outside of Riften (I'm pretty sure these respawn).

Hopefully that will get you a start on making your awesome gear.

Welcome to the thread, YuckyGeo.

Your input is appreciated. (The next time I play, I'll be checking out the brewery)
-Loth

Isn't it possible to cap everything @ have your weapon enchants costs nothing (100% Fortify Destruction) with only 21 perks?

Breton + Atronoch Stone
http://skyrimcalculator.com/#74285

Head Fortify Destruction Water Breathing
Neck Resist Fire Resist Shock
Chest Fortify Destruction Fortify Destruction & Regen Magicka
Arms Fortify One-handed Fortify Block
Finger Fortify Destruction Resist Frost
Feet Resist Frost Resist Fire
Shield Resist Magic Resist Shock

Thank you for clearing that all up loth!




I would also like to see this, i attempted to find it with no prevail Think you can lend a hand to your avid readers ? I Would very much like to play around with that initial build and see what I may be able to turn up!

The best Thralls are duel-wielding Forsworn Ravagers. They are the highest level thrall-able Forsworn who will use all four pieces of the Forsworn set. Master vampires (orcish armour version) are second as their durability is very high, but damage leaves much to be desired. Briarhearts are frequently out of level range and do not wear all 4 pieces.

Giving Ravagers dual legendary Forsworn swords with 81 fire and 81 frost damage (can be more if using multiple head gear and vampire/necromage combo) turns them into power houses capable of killing an elder dragon within a single dragonrend. Ancient ones can be taken in two dragonrend, or if there are two ravagers, or if your enchantments/smithing is boosted by multiple headgear and nercomage/vampire.

The ravager has, so far, destoryed, all the top enemies in game in single combat, including Draugr Death Overlords, Dragon Priests, Ancient Dragons, Giants, Briarhearts and Master Volkihar Vampires. Only a fully equipped Lydia can stop it's rampart, and just barely.

Of course, you can also place Summon Atronach staves in Thralls to make an army. Although the Ravagers kill so fast it was not really worth the hassle.

The 21 perk template refers to the least amount of perk required to make a very powerful character. Every other build can be build on top of that by adding other perks that a player might want (such as twin soul, daedric smithing, deft movement, necromage etc).

The numbers used in the template refers to the max damage/armor one can get without using any glitches/bugs/unintended mechanisms such as Ancient knowledge, necromage, multiple helmet etc.

briarhearts variants range from 38 to 51. The level 38 BHs are vastly superior to ravagers and some variations will equip scaled weaponry (up to ebony) instead of janky forsworn swords. I've yet to find this specific variant but it certainly does exist in game files.

100% spell absorption exploit - use a fortify destruction before getting the atronach perk and you'll get a permanent increase of the spell absorption. Coupled with atronach stone it's very easy to reach 100% spell absorption (with fortify restoration loop you don't even need the atronach stone as long as you have at least a fortify destruction potion 334%)

At some level you lost the ability to get 38 level briarhearts to spawn, too much of an hassle to track that.

A forsworn sword is exactly 20 damage less than my 500 damage daedric sword. That kind of difference makes it a non-issue.

Briarhearts do not wear forsworn armor nor gloves. Ravagers wearing full forsworn can cap armor depending on your build. My test without multiple head gear and vampire/necromage already has them at the 550+ armor range.

The strongest thrall are actually dead followers if you really want to, because they have much more base health and can be made to wear the best armors before killing them. The key difference is necklace and rings which can add a lot of magic resistance and damage. The only problem comes when you lost them for some reason and they are not so easily replaceable as ravagers.

I found Domilasa's post!

-Loth

Edit: If you notice in the perk build, she has discarded Alchemy and saved 8 perks off of the crafting template, using store-bought pots only for fortify smithing/enchanting. And I was wrong about it being 21 perks, obviously... it's only 20, and she kills alduin with 9 standing power attacks instead of 10, so... she's doing a little bit too much damage as well.

Edit2: anolysis of this build indicates that Alchemy plays a much smaller role in crafting effectiveness than we previously thought. You CAN skip it entirely (I always seem to), and still be really, really tough. This is good news for players looking to get strong quickly, as leveling alchemy can take some time... so leave it alone for the most part, if you want to -- Alchemy is not required, it is optional. What IS required to hit all the caps like this is Enchanting and Smithing. Just look at how few perks she needed with the Elven gear -- this stuff weighs next to nothing, so no need for the Steed Stone or weightless armor perks... she can run all day long with this stuff and not sweat her encumbrance even a little bit. Power attacking with very light weapons takes less stamina -- she can dish out more pain than if she used daedric, because she can chain more power attacks together for higher DPS (assuming no "vegetable soup exploit", of course).

Another thing to think about here is that the only skill that NEEDS highest-level perks is Enchanting (for Extra Effect and Elemental boosts), so you can perk the other skills at lower levels, and forget about them. You have more freedom of choice like this, and can drop perks into stuff you normally wouldn't, or play around with Conjuration and other stuff, for example, and still know that you will eventually hit the caps when you get 100-level skills. Consider that 20 perks are "spoken for", so there are still 61 other perks that are fair game to waste without any fear of messing up anything.

Imagine that using this build will require either a power-level of Alteration (to get to 70 for the 2nd rank of Magic Resistance), or the simple habitual usage of Oakskin spells and the like before every fight in order to level that skill naturally. It can't hurt to have a little extra armor as you grow your character, anyway -- so it's not like this is a bad thing, or even a drawback. Hotkey a defensive spell and get in the habit of using it frequently, and everything will fall into place.

This post needs to be in the Guide. I will get to this soon, but I'd like some more discussion about follower caps to round out the Guide entry.

How are follower/thrall caps different from the player's? Is it due to the fact that their armor and weapon skills calculate with a higher modifier? I know that player skill is halved before being multiplied against the base, but NPCs have like a 1.4 coeffecient instead of 0.5, right? Am I missing something else here?

-Loth

Edit: Also, I am correct in assuming that thralled followers get the Necromancy (+100 health) bonus? Is there any drawback to killing followers and thralling them? Can you still order them to pick locks for you and such after they are thralled?

From limited testing, thralls are not affected by the crippling penalties imposed by higher difficulties. they will do 1:1 and take 1:1 damage with enemies regardless of difficulty since they are technically also monsters/NPCs.
this is absolutely gamebreaking if youre using 4x difficulty (4x the penalty multiplier of master). while you take 8 times more damage and do 1/8th do to enemies, thralls will take 1 times and do 1 times.


best shield+sword thrall: chief yamarz (1200+ hp), full set of orchish armor. More hp than a level 81 full health-specced dragonborn.
best mage thrall: orchendor (500 hp, 100%!!! magic resistance, 2 enchantable scalable armor slots).
best archer thrall: forsworn ravager- archery variant.

the beauty of it is that a single dead thrall will cost you zero perks to obtain and 2 of them will only cost 4 or 5. this investment in conjuration is now core on just about any PC i build.

Yup, summons, thralls and followers do not suffer from difficulty penalties, only the dragonborn. You can no longer talk to a thrall follower.

Mage Thralls are generally lackluster, even Ocherdor. Chief yamarz is tanky, but generally damage is preferable for an expendable minion. Not to say yamarz isn't damaging, but dual power attacks are an absolute beast. I have seen my ravagers take down full health Deathlords instantly when all three swipes connect. Wiki recommends those two named NPC. I prefer nameless ravagers who I can afford to lose when quest events trigger it. (example: transform into werewolf, reading elderscroll, misty forest, dreamstrider, sovngarde, Japhet's Folly and sometimes just general fast travel)

Ravagers do suffer badly against magic attacks. Actually that is true for most Thralls. The exception is Orchedor and follower Thralls who can use magic resist equipment.

If killing followers is not a problem, Thralling one-handers such as Lydia and get them to duel wield (you can remove her shield when you kill her) with 4xFortify One handed, 2x29 magic resist, 50ish fire and cold resist will create mini-dragonborn unaffected by difficulty settings.

In my last NPC war, one Ravager Thrall just barely won against three Dragur Death overlords (45 level, 1300 Hp, 0 armor) at the same time, and it's equipment is not even the strongest it could be. (not using necromage-vampire nor multiple headgear)

Do follower thralls lose their conversation options? Can you still order them to do miscellaneous stuff for you?

-Loth

unfortunately no. you cant even talk to them.

I think that Blue Butterfly Wings is a component of fortify enchanting.

Are followers capped at 80% armor and whatnot like the player? I see Orchendor has 100% magic resist... is this a unique case, or can you "manufacture" other NPCs to nearly match this? What are the outer limits of using crafting to boost your followers/thralls? We've got some good info about Forsworn Ravagers already -- I'd like to be able to put some more good/relevant info in the Guide about Followers in general when I write it up.

So far, I've got:

• Followers have more customization options, and they can get +100 health by getting thralled with the Necromancy perks -- but lose conversation options as a trade-off
  
• Ravagers are the "best" thralls you can make, considering their high level and options for gear you can enchant and re-equip them with
  
• A trick to making an army is to provide thralls/followers with atronach staves or Sanguine Rose
  
• Orchendor has 100% magic resist, making him an excellent choice for thrall
  
• Chief Yamarz is the best tank, and has good armor and more HP than any other NPC
  
• Followers and Thralls (really, ANY summons) are unaffected by difficulty setting penalties

Which isn't too shabby, for a start... the info wtflag has about ravagers has been tested in-game and ran through NPC battle trials -- which is pretty awesome. I like that this isn't just theorycrafting, and has been vetted with real use. Right now, I've seen some references to AI getting your thralls lost... is this forever, as in gone from the game for good? Is this why it's a good idea to use "disposable" unnamed thrall characters? What's the downside, if any, besides the AI bugs? And, can you circumvent those bugs somehow? Do thralls disappear after fast-traveling, for instance (maybe "don't fast travel" to solve this)? Somebody mentioned that transforming into werewolf form loses your thralls for you... is this confirmed?

-Loth

ive never had my named thralls dissapear, there are some console commands you can use to teleport them to your location.

Ah, so a good reason to NOT use unnamed thralls... you can "summon" the named ones with console code sorcery! player.moveto commands and such? That's handy to know...

len, what do you know about follower caps? Are they the same as the player's (except for Orchendor)?
-Loth