To the Bethesda posters I see in these threads. Any news of when a new CK will be available? With the release of 1.8 Update.esm is version 1.70 and there is a new subrecord BOD2, which I knew about from a plugin made with version 1.6.91 of the CK that was released and pulled before 1.8 was released. A new version of the CK would help to ensure that TES5Edit is working properly and insure that any other changes are implemented into a new version.

For the developers, one gripe about the CK. The plugin that was loaded into 1.6.91 had subrecords that were in a different order then what we have found with the current CK and it's predecessors. So when I saved the plugin it didn't just change BOD2 to BODT it striped out all of the subrecords that showing as out of order in TES5Edit's reports. This mainly concerns me because older plugins could be loaded into the CK and get an updated Navmesh and possibly have other updates as well. However, the inconsistencies I have found with the update routine make that difficult because I don't want to suggest it to a user and then in essence the CK it cutting out information that may be needed for the plugin rendering it useless. Which to some extent is okay since if the CK does strip out information that causes a CTD, the old version caused a CTD anyway.

I have also noticed that the CK will pretty much strip out all localization from any utility that makes it. I could, in theory, save Update.esm as a binary equal of the Bethesda master but, as an esp with the localization flag still on and the CK would strip out all of the localization when it saved the file. One thing being worked on with TESVSnip is localization with routines that end users can use to make localized plugins. However, I need the help to produce a way to do so and once the plugin is loaded into the CK, the CK won't strip out all of the localization references.

I have been hoping for a way to contact someone for support with the subrecords. For example there are some mods made pre-CK. One in particular has a VMAD record in and EXPL record. The CK does not complain about it nor does it remove it upon save, but no other EXPL record has a VMAD and I can't make a new VMAD show up with a new record irrespective of the options I choose.

In the past I have dabbled with modding but usually only minor changes to a plugin of some sort. Because of that I'm new to the whole Bethesda modding scene. I can understand if in the past Bethesda didn't want to release any official record structures to the public. However, Skyrim's plugins and it's save games are more complex then previous versions. The amount of information left over in a save game from plugins eventually has rendered all of my save games useless if I made the save game pre Dawnguard.

I would really appreciate it if Skyrim's developers would consider beginning some correspondence not just for me but, to benefit all the tools that are being made for Skyrim. Currently reliable definitions of the record structures, the save game structure, and localization would be a big boost to the modding community. The same modding community that plays a role in the continued success of Skyrim on the PC by continued recommendations from players, and the mods made with the CK being hosted on the Steam Workshop and the Skyrim Nexus.

I can't wait to see what the next DLC holds in store for Skyrim, and what the NEW CK will provide for Skyrim's modding community.

Yeah, been using Skyrim with my team at school for the past month and a half and the update came along and installed itself the day before our final presentation. Fun times...

What's even more fun is the fact that I suspect that one of the mods that I use has been broken by the latest patch, and because it's now the weekend, it's possible I might not be able to take a look at it until at least Monday because the CK hasn't been updated yet.

I would've preferred that the patch release was delayed until next week as those of us who didn't have the foresight to backup Update.esm are now dead in the water for the weekend. Especially svcks as I am moving house on Monday.

CK is right now unusable. I am receiving very negative feedback from my mod because it seems 1.8 broke the plugin's functionality. But I can not fix anything because the CK is right now unusable. Next time you release a patch, do it with proper CK patch too. You have paralized the development of my mod. Very badly.

I didn't update yet, can you PM me a link?

And this periodic broken-ness of the CK is why some of us disappear for months at a time - to play with toys that don't break with every little update. When Apache release an update for OpenOffice.org Base, they don't disable Writer, Draw and Calc in the process. Even Microsoft don't screw up like this - at least I don't think they do. I couldn't be 100% sure because I've stopped using their edition of Office. Why? Because Microsoft commit a host of more minor screw-ups (like disabling key functions to save money on development all while claiming to make the software "easier" to use when the competition is definitely not doing the same). I can't stress how important it is for Bethesda to learn to get this stuff right while they have no competition because if Bethesda had any competition, this would be costing them dedicated customers.
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This [problem of out of sync updates disabling programs willy-nilly] needs to be fixed before ES-6 comes out or some of us will still be catching up with our CK projects for ES-5 18 months after ES-6 release (which means equivalent delays in purchasing). One way to fix this, if it's going to take more than 48 hours to undo the damage to the CK done by the update to the game, is to get Valve to offer a rollback option via Steam so that a game updated out of sync with other, dependent software (e.g. the GECK, the CK) can be rolled back to allow the dependent software to keep working. Better still, Steam needs to have an option, in the program properties, to only update the game when equivalent-level updates are available for all other programs which could be disabled by the game-update.
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At my end, I've disabled automatic updates on Skyrim in Steam but, right now, it's too little too late so, now I'm shifting the focus of my activities elsewhere. I've also taken note of the fact that disabling the Creation Kit in the process of updating the game makes it impossible for plug-in authors to address compatibility issues which, in turn, shuts the game down. This takes any advantage of early game-update away and it would be better if all programs that are part of co-dependent groups of software were updated simultaneously - even if that means significant delays in update release for one of the programs in such a group.
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Anyway, I'd like to hear about it if this problem is ever addressed - preferably a pinned topic in this forum, rather than a PM, as I'm sure that I'm not the only Bethesda customer who has been put out by this.
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[EDIT]Text added in gold[/EDIT]

The current version of TES5Edit seems to be reading the new Update.esm properly.
For all I know it could be that version number in the Update.esm's header, which is confounding the CK, and CK may not be ready to edit dragon rides yet.

My part of a project has been on hold since this. Oh well, Dragonborn Monday.

So CK is unusable for the moment, nice time to choose – the weekend when most people have free time to mod. Surely, SURELY there has to be a reason for this, doesn’t there?
Bethesda have a reputation with the modding community which is good but with the Skyrim update have failed on so many levels.

• Logic. Is it a good idea to release a patch for a game that renders its tool useless? What was the thought process behind that because it is totally illogical.
  
• Reason. Why? Simply why? Why would a successful company want to tar its reputation with a stunt like this?
  
• Not saying why. Bethesda have given no answers for the above two points.

We’ve been treated like children who ask their parents “Why is the sky blue” and Bethesda answered “Someday you’ll understand. Want a lollipop?” It can’t be that hard for intelligent people and I’m sure Bethesda has intelligent people working for them, to say “We did this because –Logic, Reason.” We’re not dumb Bethesda, some of us have taken your products apart and made them, sometimes better, our hard earned cash is in your pockets and hours, days, months and even years of our free time have been poured into your games and tools. Don’t we deserve some kind of response?
The lack of a response just leads us to speculate and usually we speculate wrongly. What are we supposed to do? If a government doesn’t explain its actions then conspiracy arises. Do you Bethesda just sit back and read these posts and not reply because “They wouldn’t understand. They’re not intelligent enough, they don’t need to know, my coffee’s getting cold”, see where I’m going with speculation.
EA is the most-hated company in the world because it treats its customers like dirt. Don’t fall into this trap. Thousands of modders will now take their attention to some other project because they have no idea when they’ll be able to return to CK. This is not the way to maintain a fan base.
All we ask for is an answer to one question.
Why?

And then people will start to argue this is a bad reason because X, Y and Z. And then they will complain if Bethesda does not answer and does not "listen" (submit) to their opinion.

Afaik, the EULA does not contrain Bethesda to provide answers. And the EULA is where your rights stop as a customer. Worse, EULA nowadays are more about you agreeing to renounce to your rights than gaining new ones, so we could as well say that our rights are about non-existent.

If they spend money answering your questions, will it bring them back more money? This is a company, its stockholders are not benevolent people.

And EA is also a very rich company. I hope they crash with their Origin platform but so far customers enjoyed being treated like dirt.

Thousands of modders will be going away in the few days before the new version of the CK is released? I strongly doubt so.

It is. We knew about the change from 0.94 to 1.70 when the Beta came out and the BOD2 Record in place of BODT.

My Skyrim version is 1.8.151.0 and the CK is 1.6.89.0 , but everything is working just fine? I can use it without any issues. It works ingame as well.

I am dead in the water until the new CK comes out, also

I hope you notice that's like saying "When BGS updates the Creation Engine, they don't disable Skyrim." Writer, Draw, and Calc are not the developer tools used to make the OpenOffice.org base. The Creation Kit is the toolkit that CREATES the content played in Skyrim. In your example, BGS and Microsoft do the exact same thing.

I'm kind of surprised that with literally every single update, when the CK is 'broken' (Just not up to date) people get so mad and act so surprised. Does it svck? Yeah. Would it be great if they updated the CK the same day? Of course. Has this happened with literally every single update to one of BGS's games ever? At least since I've been here, yes. (Since late in the FO3 cycle) We'll get the CK update early next week. In the meantime, just relax, play something else, do some CK tutorials, or read a book. (I know, I know, what the heck is a book!)

If you guys keep expecting this not to happen, it will make you angry. If you accept that it's going to happen, then it won't bother you and you won't get so mad at it.

The problems only occur if your mod uses Update.esm as a master, as that cannot be loaded into the current CK version.

If you have a mod that uses Update.esm then when the CK loads the master files, it will stop and tell that it has detected an unsupported version Update.esm, or something like that. I saw it when the 1.8 Patch came out and I can't see it now because I haven't updated. Back then I opted out of the 1.8 patch and I won't be updating Skyrim until a new CK is available.

I use the Update.esm

Oddly enough, if I check when the file was last updated it says it was February 2012.... odd

Then maybe you are lucky or your files didn't update completely I would backup your files in the Skyrim\Data folder because if the Steam Network decides to update them in the background, once it does and you have the new Update.esm version 1.70 then that one won't load in the CK. That version shows up in the TES4 HEDR of the file itself I don't think it's in the properties of the file like the last date updated and such.

That's not actually a good thing. It means your files are out of sync with each other. You could have BSAs which aren't in synch too since plenty of them have been updated since launch.

Pretty much this. Just do something else on your mods that doesn't require the CK.

Or, heck, play the game or something

The Update.bsa was updated 2 days ago. It seems the Update.esm is the only thing having the wrong version.

It's probably a good idea to back up the Update.esm you have now and then let Steam validate the cache so that your files are all of the proper version.

Makes me wonder how many times they've gone out of sync and ended up causing some of the user reports I see where stuff simply doesn't work that you've tested hundreds of times without fail and can't ever reproduce a bug for. Give me the old days where one manually downloaded a patch and it always worked properly when installed.

The simple solution is to stop making Update.ESM a master for your mod. Unless your changing vanilla objects, I see little reason to make that a requirement.

Update isn't far off. We're working with getting it up with the folks from Valve. Fingers crossed for Monday.

Thanks for the update, Gstaff.

Since a pretty big number of mods are, it's prudent to make sure Update.esm is included. There's a lot of stuff that can get wiped out even if you're not specifically altering the same things. Like cell flags or worldspace settings.

Granted, you can still have issues with keeping in sync with future updates, but the same was true of the prior games as well. Which is where TES5Edit comes in.

Thanks for that